TriPlex Bare Wire as a Neutral

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bigduvid

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Cleveland, Ohio USA

:? We have replaced the overhead feed from the house to the garage using # 6 Triplex. This is a multi branch circuit feed. The inspector is not allowing the bare wire to be used as a neutral. He is requiring it be replaced with Quadlex. We have done this many times with out objection from inspectors. Is there any code that states this installation is acceptable? Or does the code state that this installation is not acceptable?
 
If you are using the bare for your neutral what are you using for you equipment grounding conductor?
 
We are rewiring a detached garage, The garage has an over head feed without any ground, We have always installed a ground rod to provide a ground to the garage. We have a new inspector that will not allow it and is accepting GFCI protection in the garage. Is there any code that does or does not allow for grounding a existing detached garage with a ground rod?
 
Well your in a pickle as triplex is not an listed NEC wiring method, so he can fail you on just that, and 200 in the NEC does not allow a bare neutral if it is a feeder or branch circuit and the fact that you can not use the neutral for grounding even to an out building (250.32), but if this is a service entrance conductors then 230.22 exception would allow it, so is this drop coming from a breaker in the house panel or does it com from a separate set of lugs in the meter, if the latter they are still service entrance conductors and 230.22 exception will allow not only a 3-wire but also a bare neutral over head, for this allowance see 230.40 exception #3
 
bigduvid said:
We have always installed a ground rod to provide a ground to the garage. Is there any code that does or does not allow for grounding a existing detached garage with a ground rod?
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Ground rods are for lightning protection and such, you need a way to facilitate the operation of an over current protection device.
 
bigduvid said:
We are rewiring a detached garage, The garage has an over head feed without any ground, We have always installed a ground rod to provide a ground to the garage. We have a new inspector that will not allow it and is accepting GFCI protection in the garage. Is there any code that does or does not allow for grounding a existing detached garage with a ground rod?
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Allowing a ground rod???? For what???? not for a fault path I hope?

A separate structure if fed by a feeder has to have a ground rod anyways, and a GEC, before 2008 a 3-wire feeder was allowed but with requirements, that there were no other conductive paths between the buildings, if he is treating this as a repair then it needs to be treated as it was installed from the items that did meet code, no where in the NEC did it allow a bare neutral for feeders or branch circuit conductors, the only allowance was for ahead of the main service disconnect only, not after.
 
Hurk27
The wires are coming out on the exterior of a 1920's house. One is a hot tapped off K&T wiring and the other is a leg from a switch and the third is a neutral.


stickboy1375
Are ground rods from the system ground used for lightning protection?
 
I would say since you are "rewiring this garage" it has to meet the latest NEC, and the latest NEC does not allow a 3-wire feeder to a outbuilding (250.32) and or a bare neutral 200.

Unless you have a separate set of lugs in the meter or a tape box on the load side of the meter you cant use 230.40 exception 3 to used service conductors to the garage either.

And you have never been allowed to use a ground rod as a fault current path, it just wont do it, older codes allowed you to use a 3-wire feeder but you have yo bond the grounding to the neutral in the garage for a fault path, but if you meant you were using a ground rod only to the receptacle EGC's and there was not bond to the neutral like a main bonding jumper installed, you have created a dangerous garage as if there is ever a fault all it will do is cause 120 volts to be on all the grounding of the garage and someone can be killed. a ground rod can never have a low enough impedance path that would open a breaker and it is not design to do this.
 
bigduvid said:
Hurk27
The wires are coming out on the exterior of a 1920's house. One is a hot tapped off K&T wiring and the other is a leg from a switch and the third is a neutral.


stickboy1375
Are ground rods from the system ground used for lightning protection?
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I'll bet there use to be a 3-way in that garage and at the house and the hot and neutral was the travelers, which would make it an Old farmers 3-way, or what some call a Chicago 3-way, was a very common wiring back then on K&T houses with an out building and also used in stairways, the purpose was to allow a switch at each end and at the same time carry both the hot and neutral to the other location, but has long been not allowed as it switches the shell and center pin of the light between hot and neutral depending which switch is thrown, so in retrospect you have a hot and a switch-leg and a neutral, well the neutral still cant be bare, I would eliminate the switch leg and use it for a neutral then use the bare for a EGC, then just put a switch in the garage, then the garage will only be fed by one branch circuit and no ground rod is required.
 
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hurk27 said:
I'll bet there use to be a 3-way in that garage and at the house and the hot and neutral was the travelers, which would make it an Old farmers 3-way, or what some call a Chicago 3-way, was a very common wiring back them on K&T houses with an out building and also used in stairways, the purpose was to allow a switch at each end and at the same time carry both the hot and neutral to the other location, but has long been not allowed as it switches the shell and center pin of the light between hot and neutral depending which switch is thrown, so in retrospect you have a hot and a switch-leg and a neutral, well the neutral still cant be bare, I would eliminate the switch leg and use it for a neutral then use the bare for a EGC, then just put a switch in the garage, then the garage will only be fed by one branch circuit and no ground rod is required.
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Yep, and if they want to turn a load on at the garage from the house, sell them a PICO wireless from Lutron. :) God I love these...
 

There is no three way in the garage in this application. Yes in many cases, the hot originates in the house and two travelers and a neutral are sent overhead to the garage. In this application, there are two three ways in the house, one at the side door and one at the rear door. Going to the garage are the leg of the three way, a hot and a neutral.

Am I better off not installing a ground rod in the garage and just GFCI protecting the lights and outlets?

I have never had a hot to ground fault not trip a breaker both in a detached garage with a ground rod or in the house.
 
Do not really understand what you are doing. Since this is new work and Ohio is using the 2008 NEC (1,2,3 family) a 4-wire is required for a panel in the garage.

I don't understand how you have 2 circuits out there with triplex? :?

Sounds like the previous ESIs were not paying attention.:ashamed1:
 
There is no panel in the garage. I am playing the worst case that the leg and hot may be from different circuits. The installation would be conisdered as new work as it is exposed, but a replacment.
 
bigduvid said:
There is no panel in the garage. I am playing the worst case that the leg and hot may be from different circuits. The installation would be conisdered as new work as it is exposed, but a replacment.
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Sounds like your inspector is treating this a new and not a replacement MAYBE because you only had one circuit and not 'single' (multi-wire) circuit.?

Still a little confused on what you are doing but it sounds like your inspector is correct.
 
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