TriPlex Bare Wire as a Neutral

[bigduvid]

It is a 15 amp circuit. It is a detached garage.

 

[bigduvid]

The two three way switches are located in the house and only the light leg i going overhead to the garage

 

[jxofaltrds]

The two three way switches are located in the house and only the light leg i going overhead to the garage

I'm not to bright splain to me why you have 2 3-ways 'inside' and only the switch leg going to the garage? :dunce:

 

[bigduvid]

I was not to bright either. The house when built, was buil with three entrances, front, side and rear. It appears that either at the time of construction in the 1920's the house was wired to chave a constant hot in the garage and the exterior light on the garage be controlled from either the side door or the rear door.

I am understanding a fault to the neutral. The neutral is bonded to the EGC in the house main panel. If there is no panel in the garage why is it required to be bonded in the garage. If there is a fault to the neutral or to the ground rod, the circuit will trip [breaker or fuse].

 

[stickboy1375]

I'm not to bright splain to me why you have 2 3-ways 'inside' and only the switch leg going to the garage? :dunce:

Because they wanted to turn the light on at the garage from two separate locations, most likely two exterior doors leading to the same area.

 

[stickboy1375]

I am understanding a fault to the neutral. The neutral is bonded to the EGC in the house main panel. If there is no panel in the garage why is it required to be bonded in the garage. If there is a fault to the neutral or to the ground rod, the circuit will trip [breaker or fuse].

See, thats a problem, you can't extend an ungrounded circuit. Even if GFCI protected, so the inspector was wrong in telling you he would accept this. I believe you are lacking some general electrical knowledge in area 250 of the NEC....

This is what you are trying to accomplish!

 

[George Stolz]

Going to the garage are the leg of the three way, a hot and a neutral.

I am replacing these three wires with a Triplex.



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If you are replacing the conductors, then you have to bring them to current code.

In this case, I think the inspector is right to require the neutral to be insulated. 225.4.

I don't see where an outdoor branch circuit neutral is specifically permitted to be bare. So, to get what you need done, you need three insulated conductors and a bare equipment grounding conductor.

I don't understand how you were intending to give the garage a neutral and a fault clearing path without using the neutral for both (bonding them); this would be a violation of 250.142(B).

Disregard the Grounding Electrode System, for a single branch circuit (assuming the hot and the switchleg are on the same circuit, you do not have to use it. I originally assumed the triplex was serving a panel.

Note that a neutral cannot serve two circuits (200.4), so if your hot and switchleg are on different circuits you would suddenly need a second neutral and also have to tie the Grounding Electrode System at the garage to the EGC of the garage.

 

[markjpatterson]

Heres the code loop

Heres the code loop

Messenger supported wiring


396.2(4),396.10(A),TBL 396.10(A),338.10(B)(4)(b),225 Part I, 225.4 exception.

So where is the bare "specifically permitted" to be allowed to be used as a groundeed conductor?

230.41 exceptions (1thru 5) for services are the only sections I am aware of. Anyone have any others ?

:? We have replaced the overhead feed from the house to the garage using # 6 Triplex. This is a multi branch circuit feed. The inspector is not allowing the bare wire to be used as a neutral. He is requiring it be replaced with Quadlex. We have done this many times with out objection from inspectors. Is there any code that states this installation is acceptable? Or does the code state that this installation is not acceptable?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If the installation pre dates the 2008 NEC and there is no metallic pathways between the buildings then a 3 wire triplex was allowed as a feeder to the building but not as a MWBC. When you replace the wire then it must be brought up to code. 4 wire is required unless you are on the 2005 NEC or earlier.

 

[hurk27]

If the installation pre dates the 2008 NEC and there is no metallic pathways between the buildings then a 3 wire triplex was allowed as a feeder to the building but not as a MWBC. When you replace the wire then it must be brought up to code. 4 wire is required unless you are on the 2005 NEC or earlier.

Dennis, even my 1999 NEC does not allow a bare neutral after the main service disconnect and bonding point, the neutral has always been required to be an insulated conductor after this point as far back as I can remember, ahead of the service point then you can use the 230.22 exception.

I'm sure you were only pointing out that prior to 2008 you could use a 3-wire feed but just wanted to make clear the neutral still has to be insulated.

 

[stickboy1375]

Dennis, even my 1999 NEC does not allow a bare neutral after the main service disconnect and bonding point, the neutral has always been required to be an insulated conductor after this point as far back as I can remember, ahead of the service point then you can use the 230.22 exception.

I'm sure you were only pointing out that prior to 2008 you could use a 3-wire feed but just wanted to make clear the neutral still has to be insulated.

I'm sure its overlooked in many applications too, because i've seen my share of triplex strung across peoples property.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I'm sure its overlooked in many applications too, because i've seen my share of triplex strung across peoples property.

If it is existing, grandfathered, does it pose any safety issues/concerns?

 

[stickboy1375]

If it is existing, grandfathered, does it pose any safety issues/concerns?

Well, it certainly wasn't ever legal that's for sure, but since so many people see the power company doing it, I don't think it ever gets thought of twice as being done incorrectly, As far as a safety issue is concerned, I see none other than violating black and white words. But... I wouldn't want to be in a lawsuit of any caliber if something did happen for whatever reason.

 

[fmtjfw]

code references and an opinion

code references and an opinion

225.4 Conductor Covering. Where within 3.0 m (10 ft) of
any building or structure other than supporting poles or
towers, open individual (aerial) overhead conductors shall
be insulated or covered. Conductors in cables or raceways,
except Type MI cable, shall be of the rubber-covered type
or thermoplastic type and, in wet locations, shall comply
with 310.10(C). Conductors for festoon lighting shall be of
the rubber-covered or thermoplastic type.
Exception: Equipment grounding conductors and grounded
circuit conductors shall be permitted to be bare or covered as
specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code.

300.37 Aboveground Wiring Methods. Aboveground conductors
shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, in intermediate
metal conduit, in electrical metallic tubing, in RTRC and
PVC conduit, in cable trays, in auxiliary gutters, as busways,
as cablebus, in other identified raceways, or as exposed
runs of metal-clad cable suitable for the use and purpose. In
locations accessible to qualified persons only, exposed runs
of Type MV cables, bare conductors, and bare busbars shall
also be permitted. Busbars shall be permitted to be either
copper or aluminum.

399.2 Definition.
Outdoor Overhead Conductors. Single conductors, insulated,
covered, or bare, installed outdoors on support structures.

225.4 allows bare grounded conductor "specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code." The locations in the code mostly refer to grounding conductors.


300.37 allows bare conductors "In locations accessible to qualified persons only which probably does not apply to a run between a house and a garage.

399.2 seems to apply to single conductors not to cabled conductors.


If I were inspecting it I would require quadraplex, insulated neutral, insulated branch circuit hot, and insulated switch leg, with a bare grounding conductor.