Panelboards sharing neutral

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millerjohn

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Afghanistan
I am a QC Electrical Inspector with CH2MHILL at camp Leatherneck, Afghanistan. Trying to find a refrence for sharing neutrals between panelboards fed from the same source. Situation is this: 400A main dist. panel (208/120 3PH) feeds individual rooms each with a single phase 60A sub-panel/panelboard. Neutal is shared between three phases with one phase (each) supplying (each) panelboard. Junction boxes are used to carry the neutral on to the next room. Hence, one neutral; three circuits fed from three single pole breakers; feeding three separate rooms. Should single pole breakers be grouped together and handle ties installed?
Thanks!
 

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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That is truly an unusual situation but IMO it is compliant with either a 3 pole breaker or handle ties. Odd because it is a branch circuit design for a feeder.
 

iwire

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Massachusetts
That is truly an unusual situation but IMO it is compliant with either a 3 pole breaker or handle ties. Odd because it is a branch circuit design for a feeder.

It is not a branch circuit at all if I understand it.

That said a 3 pole common trip breaker would be required.
 

Dennis Alwon

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It is not a branch circuit at all if I understand it.

That said a 3 pole common trip breaker would be required.

No it is not a branch circuit-- it is a feeder being used like a MWBC-- common neutral used at 3 panels with one ungrounded conductor for each panel. I am not sure the code addresses this setup - I don't see why a handle tie wouldn't be acceptable in this setup.
 

iwire

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No it is not a branch circuit-- it is a feeder being used like a MWBC-- common neutral used at 3 panels with one ungrounded conductor for each panel. I am not sure the code addresses this setup - I don't see why a handle tie wouldn't be acceptable in this setup.

Because the handle tie rule applies to MWBC, not feeders.

Would you use 3 single pole breakers with a handle tie for a feeder supplying one three phase panel?

The rules are in 240 when I can I will post.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Because the handle tie rule applies to MWBC, not feeders.

Would you use 3 single pole breakers with a handle tie for a feeder supplying one three phase panel?

The rules are in 240 when I can I will post.

I understand the rule but since the feeders are going to different locations I don't see why (safety wise) a common trip is necessary.
 

iwire

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IMO this applies.

240.15 Ungrounded Conductors.

(B) Circuit Breaker as Overcurrent Device. Circuit breakers
shall open all ungrounded conductors of the circuit both
manually and automatically unless otherwise permitted in
240.15(B)(1), (B)(2), (B)(3), and (B)(4).

(B)(1) is the section that allows single poles for MWBCs but (B)(3) addresses 3 phase system feeders but only allows handle ties for line to line loads, it sounds to me like he has line to neutral loads.

(3) 3-Phase and 2-Phase Systems. For line-to-line loads
in 4-wire, 3-phase systems or 5-wire, 2-phase systems, individual
single-pole circuit breakers rated 120/240 volts ac
with identified handle ties shall be permitted as the protection
for each ungrounded conductor, if the systems have a
grounded neutral point and the voltage to ground does not
exceed 120 volts.


In my opinion the NEC does not permit single pole units to be used for millerjohn's application and multiple common trip breakers are required.
 

millerjohn

Member
Location
Afghanistan
Thanks!

Thanks!

Yes, this is an unusual install, but this is Afghanistan. What's worrisome is that trouble in one panel can end up disconnecting three. Sometimes you settle for less than perfect as long as the install is safe. This is an easy fix with handle ties.
Thanks for all the input!
 

charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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Please allow me to play Devil's Advocate, and suggest that this installation is acceptable, and that none of the code articles mentioned so far would forbid it. I mean that none apply to this installation. Specifically, 240.15 (see post #8) would not be violated, because each circuit does have a breaker that does ?open all ungrounded conductors of the circuit, both manually and automatically.? My reasoning is that we don?t have a MWBC, as others have already pointed out. What we have instead is three circuits, each comprising a feeder, and each protected by a single pole breaker.

210.4(A) tells us that MWBCs are permitted to be considered multiple circuits, which tells me that they are also permitted to be considered a single circuit. There is nothing similar for feeders. In other words, nothing tells us that MWFCs (?multi-wire feeder circuits?) are permitted to be considered as multiple circuits or as individual circuits.

So it boils down to this: Are we allowed to share neutrals on a feeder? I can?t think of an article that says yes or one that says no. But if we are, then there is certainly no article that commands us to open all associated phases simultaneously (i.e., using either handle ties or multi-pole breakers).

By the way, millerjohn, I believe we are doing similar projects to the one you are describing. I haven't yet gotten to the detail of designing the feeders to the individual units, so I am interested in how this thread plays out. Would I be right in guessing that the acronym "CHU," or perhaps "CLU," might be involved in your project? :happyyes:
 

charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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But is it really a feeder (as in singular, one feeder), or is it three?

I have designed similar feeder installations, with three ungrounded conductors and a shared neutral, serving a string of single phase line-to-neutral loads. Examples include site lighting and VAV boxes. At each load in the series, one of the ungrounded conductors is brought to the equipment along with the shared neutral. At the next load in the series, it would be a different ungrounded and the shared neutral. I am sure we have all dealt with such circuits. I haven't done one in a while, but I am certain that I treated it as a single feeder (not three separate feeders), and I seem to recall that I called for a three phase breaker. It is a question in my mind now as to whether I would have been required to call for a three phase breaker.
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
But is it really a feeder (as in singular, one feeder), or is it three?

One neutral is one feeder IMO.

Below is my rough idea of what the OP has. Please forgive the crudeness and phase A would be in the J-box.:)

IMG_1510.jpg
 
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