Arc Flash Analysis

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69jag

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tulsa, ok
who has the authority to conduct an arc flash analysis in the state of oklahoma? May an unlimited electrical contractor conduct an arc flash analysis by the laws of Oklahoma or is it a legal requirement that a Electrical Engineer or Electrical engineering firm conduct such analysis. I am an unlimited oklahoma electrical contractor and have passed an arc flash continued education class from an electrical engineering accreditd class and if I am not legally allowed to conduct such analysis then why are there so many classes one can take to conduct such analysis? this seems to be a very gray area.
I am licensed ubder title 59 Oklahom statute. as an Electrical contractor I make electrical mathmatical calculations every day ( it seems ) I do electrical work every day ( it seems ) Whats the deal and where is the code ruling on this matter ? Thanks
 
appaerntly

appaerntly

I receieved a Cease and Desist order from the www.pels.ok.gov and would like to gather information as to the Authority or are they trying to grab all arc flash analysis in Oklahoma ? Political !!! We as Electrical Contractors provide over current protection, etc.etc. and have to buy insureance policies to protect the customers eveything we touch and install an analysis is really no different is it ? unqulified workers should not be working with electric period. Thank You Bob for replying
 
it is entirely possible that the state has determined such activity is "engineering". I just don't know.

In general it is no more complex than many things contractors routinely design without any engineering supervision.
 
DYI

DYI

I did pass an exam from a Electrical Engineer its not like I just screwed in a light bulb and said I can. I did not fill in every minor detail. Thanks for your oppinion anyway God Bless. Have a good evening.
 
69jag said:
I did pass an exam from a Electrical Engineer its not like I just screwed in a light bulb and said I can. I did not fill in every minor detail. Thanks for your oppinion anyway God Bless. Have a good evening.
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I spent 4 years as an electrician in our university theatre program, should that allow me to call myself a contractor and do your job?

There is a reason for licensing.
 
I am not licensed to practice law but can ask questions.

From:
http://www.ok.gov/pels/documents/Statutes.pdf

4. ?Practice of engineering? means any service or creative work, the
adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training
and experience in the application of special knowledge of the
mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such services or
creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning and
design of engineering works and systems, planning the engineering use
of land and water, teaching of advanced engineering subjects or courses
related thereto, engineering research, engineering surveys, engineering
studies, and the inspection or review of construction for the purposes of
assuring compliance with drawings and specifications;

I don't see how 70E has anything to do with the 'practice' of engineering.

You said that you are licensed. Correct?

Design review and integration includes the design review and integration of those technical submissions prepared by others, including as appropriate and without limitation, engineers, architects, landscape architects, land surveyors, and other professionals working under the direction of the engineer. The definition of design review and integration by engineers does not restrict the services other licensed professional disciplines are authorized to offer or perform by statute or regulation.

I would fight that if I lived there.
 
the question is

the question is

who gave pels the power of thourity on arc flash study. OSHA, NFPA, who? the NEC 116.10 2011 book only states in note one. to use NFPA 70 E and note 2 . provides guid line on how to conduct the arc flsh study. No where does it say it has to be done by a professional Engineer, if so why show us how to do them and furthermore if an electrical Engineer offers study material and claims to provide accredited continued education upon passing an exam of the arc flash study. but your not allowed to do so then its the professional Engineers that are trying to double dip. Right? As an Unlimited Electrical contractor I sell tangable goods not selling a breaker that cant be turned on or off, unless you now spend more money to an engineering degree thats tells you the breaker is on if in the on possition and off in the opposite position. So if any one out there knows where it is written in plain english stating electricians can only spend money on seminars and go away with the knowlege of how to turn on a breaker but cant turn on the breaker please step up and show me in black and white. and futher more thse out of state engineering firms that send a customer forms th fill out send back to the engineering firm and then they draw up a one line and send a package of ppe stikers back and tel the customer go stick the on your gear your now compliant, but and missed calculation is of your own fault and we can not warrent any accidents that falls back on your company ins. There has got to be some logic to this game these people are playing . seems like Greed to me.
 
No where in the NEC does it say electrical installations must be performed by licensed electrical contractors, so why should it address engineering?

Most state statutes dealing with engineering, reference the performance of consultation, engineering surveys, and engineering studies - How is 'arc flash' not part of these activities?
 
This sounds like one more attempt by gov engineers to say that electricians/contractors are stupid. First off, most, not all, but most engineers are not "Qualified Persons" per OSHA to even gather the data to do the study. Yes they can enter the info into the computer and press the button, but so can anyone else. We can take this one step further and say, show me the Univ course that taught you how to do the Arc Flash, or even the NEC for that matter. IMO a master electrician and an EE are equal. Calif understands this and lets a C-10 wet sign his drawings, at least this was the case when I had my C10. No PE needed. And plan check is not done by a PE, and if you dont do what they say, no permit. Nothing harder than HS math. no diffy Q just good old + - * / and some trig for the pipe benders.
 
kenaslan said:
. Nothing harder than HS math. no diffy Q just good old + - * / and some trig for the pipe benders.
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Wait a minute, what happened to
Please = ()
Excuse = ^0
MY = *
Dear = /
Aunt = +
Sally = -

Or

Oscar = sine
Had
A = cosine
Heap
Of = tang
Apples

Oh this high school list goes on and on but I do agree with you although I would never do one of those calculations
 
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jxofaltrds said:
4. ?Practice of engineering? means any service or creative work, the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training and experience in the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such services or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning and design of engineering works and systems, planning the engineering use of land and water, teaching of advanced engineering subjects or courses related thereto, engineering research, engineering surveys, engineering studies, and the inspection or review of construction for the purposes of assuring compliance with drawings and specifications;
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I don?t understand why you emphasized those last five words with bold text. They only refer to the tasks of inspection (or review) of construction activities. That task is completely separate from the others in the definition (e.g., consultation, design, and surveys). Although this definition does not explicitly mention calculations, that task is something that requires special knowledge of math and sciences, knowledge that is gained by engineering education, training, and experience.
 
kenaslan said:
Yes they (engineers) can enter the info into the computer and press the button, but so can anyone else. We can take this one step further and say, show me the Univ course that taught you how to do the Arc Flash, or even the NEC for that matter.
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I did not learn how to gather data in the field from a university course, nor did I learn how to use the NEC. What I did gain from my engineering study was an understanding of the physical nature of the flow of electricity, the tools that allow me to predict its behavior under normal and abnormal conditions, and most importantly the ability to discern the difference between a valid calculation that gave reasonable results from a calculation that included an error that caused the results to be unreasonable. My knowledge of power systems software is not limited to the ability to input information and push the button. I can duplicate the calculation manually, with pencil and paper, by applying the non-linear analysis process that is built into the software. It would take me a long time and a lot of paper, so I prefer to use the software, but I can say that I understand what the software is doing with the information that I gave it.

When I perform an Arc Flash Study, I use the SKM version of power system modeling and analysis software. You don’t need an engineering degree to use that software to set up the model or to run the analysis. But you do need one to be able to say,
  • “I know how to verify that all design inputs have been correctly given to the model, and I have done that verification, and
  • I know what the analysis results are telling me, and I have reason to be confident that the results are accurate, and
  • I certify that the Arc Flash Hazard labels that were generated on the basis of the results of this analysis are the correct ones to be applied to their respective panels.”
 
You forgot "BBROYGBVGW"

{MODERATOR'S NOTE: He didn't forget that one. I deleted it, just like I deleted it here. That mnemonic is inappropriate, and violates the rules of this forum.}
 
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I will agree with you that this was correct when you and I went to school. However look at the course of study now. Back then you got to choose power of electronics. Now it is only micro electronics, unless you go the AE route. Nothing in CMOS design will prepair anyone for power. Been there Done That. Unfortunatly, school now is based on profit, and power in not a profitable course. Young people want computers, not walking in a mine determining power layout. It not "Glamorious". My last company Ensercia Engineering hired for the position of Electrical Department Manager a person that had NO knowledge whatsoever of power engineering. He did not even know 180VA per recpt. He did know how many transisters were in a CMOS chip. This is where Univ schooling has taken us. I will trust a master electrician with 30+ years over a PE with 1 year in a heart beat, but I get OT.


charlie b said:
I did not learn how to gather data in the field from a university course, nor did I learn how to use the NEC. What I did gain from my engineering study was an understanding of the physical nature of the flow of electricity, the tools that allow me to predict its behavior under normal and abnormal conditions, and most importantly the ability to discern the difference between a valid calculation that gave reasonable results from a calculation that included an error that caused the results to be unreasonable. My knowledge of power systems software is not limited to the ability to input information and push the button. I can duplicate the calculation manually, with pencil and paper, by applying the non-linear analysis process that is built into the software. It would take me a long time and a lot of paper, so I prefer to use the software, but I can say that I understand what the software is doing with the information that I gave it.

When I perform an Arc Flash Study, I use the SKM version of power system modeling and analysis software. You don?t need an engineering degree to use that software to set up the model or to run the analysis. But you do need one to be able to say,
  • ?I know how to verify that all design inputs have been correctly given to the model, and I have done that verification, and
  • I know what the analysis results are telling me, and I have reason to be confident that the results are accurate, and
  • I certify that the Arc Flash Hazard labels that were generated on the basis of the results of this analysis are the correct ones to be applied to their respective panels.?
Click to expand...
 
If the state has make it a law that you have to be a PE firm to do arc flash calcualtions than that is the law. Your gripe is with the state if that is the case.
 
BBROYGBVGW Bad Booze Rots Our Young Guts, But Vodka Goes Well
Or this one. Funny the first was taught in HS back in the 70's

kenaslan said:
You forgot "BBROYGBVGW"

{MODERATOR'S NOTE: He didn't forget that one. I deleted it, just like I deleted it here. That mnemonic is inappropriate, and violates the rules of this forum.}
Click to expand...
 
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