GFI's in commercial kitchens

[north star]

* * * *

Aaaaahhhhem, ...did "cdb277" get a clear cut answer to his
question?.....Some have said that they believe it is the kitchen
equipment, or the environment in which the equipment is
installed......Is there a more definitive answer?......Also,
I noticed on his account, ...that he is a "Moderated Member".
Is this some new type of penalty box attachment, ...is
"cdb277" on some type of probation? :blink:

Thanks!

* * * *

 

[roger]

* * * *

Aaaaahhhhem, ...did "cdb277" get a clear cut answer to his
question?.....

Maybe, maybe not, we're not there to trouble shoot the problem

Some have said that they believe it is the kitchen
equipment, or the environment in which the equipment is
installed......

And from experience those are some probable answers

*Is there a more definitive answer?

Maybe, maybe not
..

*....Also,
I noticed on his account, ...that he is a "Moderated Member".
Is this some new type of penalty box attachment, ...is

"cdb277" on some type of probation? :blink:

Thanks!

* * * *

New members must have their first few post approved by a Moderator, this filters out spam, trolls, advertisers, etc...

Roger

 

[north star]

* * *

Thanks "Roger" for the reply! :huh:

& & &

 

[fmtjfw]

Code and non-code rationale

Code and non-code rationale

Exactly, a class A device has to trip at a much lower current than a class B device. With that said, even though you did this at a school that has nothing to do with the NEC requirement and this is the "NEC" forum we are discussing this in.

Roger

Ok, are we now agreed that a Class A GFCI intended for personnel protection is intended to trip on a leakage current of 4--6milliAmps?

Next step, I measured 30milliAmps of leakage, which was why, when you plugged in the ice-maker into a Class A GFCI, it tripped.

Now to the NEC:
210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel
shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.

...

(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations
specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

...

(2) Kitchens

none of the exceptions apply

100 I Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

This classroom had large commercial ovens, stovetops, and a sink, in addition to the ice-maker so I believed it to be a kitchen.

Now outside the code:

The repairman from Billy-Bobs Kitchen Appliance Repair and Bait Shop had been there, declared the GFCI defective. He had moved the plug from the GFCI to an unprotected receptacle.

The ice-maker had 5 times the allowable leakage current and was older than dirt.

I considered the probability that someone would remove the red tag and plug the ice-maker into the unprotected receptacle. I believed for the safety of the students it was prudent to prevent this. I was acting under:

90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

I know that the practice of cutting cord is not listed in the code but it was the practice and duty of electricians to cut the plugs off any 2-wire extension cords and 3-wire extension cords with missing grounding prongs on the last construction site I worked on. I considered cutting the cord effective.

 

[roger]

Ok, are we now agreed that a Class A GFCI intended for personnel protection is intended to trip on a leakage current of 4--6milliAmps?

That was never a question in my mind'

Next step, I measured 30milliAmps of leakage, which was why, when you plugged in the ice-maker into a Class A GFCI, it tripped.

No, 30 Ma will not trip a class A device which trips at 4 to 6 mA, a class A device would not see 30 mA as a problem, this may be the communication problem

Now to the NEC:
210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel
shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.

...

(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations
specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

...

(2) Kitchens

none of the exceptions apply

100 I Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

This classroom had large commercial ovens, stovetops, and a sink, in addition to the ice-maker so I believed it to be a kitchen.

And who are you arguing that with?

Now outside the code:

The repairman from Billy-Bobs Kitchen Appliance Repair and Bait Shop had been there, declared the GFCI defective. He had moved the plug from the GFCI to an unprotected receptacle.

The ice-maker had 5 times the allowable leakage current and was older than dirt.

I considered the probability that someone would remove the red tag and plug the ice-maker into the unprotected receptacle. I believed for the safety of the students it was prudent to prevent this. I was acting under:

90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

I know that the practice of cutting cord is not listed in the code but it was the practice and duty of electricians to cut the plugs off any 2-wire extension cords and 3-wire extension cords with missing grounding prongs on the last construction site I worked on. I considered cutting the cord effective.

Once again, I think you are confussing the greater protection of the class A device and the lesser protection of the class B device.


Roger

 

[roger]

Fmtjfw

I owe you an apology, I am the one with the communication problem. After I started home and thought about what you were saying and what I was saying it hit me like a brick and I was making incorrect statements. Anyways, I am on your page now and you are correct.


Roger

 

[steve66]

Fmtjfw

OK, since you have explained all the circumstances, cutting the plug off seems plausible for the situation you were in.

But I'm still pretty skeptical of using a clamp meter to try and measure milliamps. IMO, there is just too many sources of error. I've seen a clamp meter register over 1000 amps just because a small radio was keyed nearby.

Of course you are free to use any method you like, but just for the advise of the other person that asked, I'd suggest buying something specifically made to test leakage current.

 

[Little Bill]

Fmtjfw

I owe you an apology, I am the one with the communication problem. After I started home and thought about what you were saying and what I was saying it hit me like a brick and I was making incorrect statements. Anyways, I am on your page now and you are correct.


Roger

Whew!! I thought I was going to have to jump in and risk looking dumber than I normally do!

Usually when something is that obvious to me (someone being wrong) I jump before I stop and think maybe I've missed something or they are taking a different angle. But for the life of me I couldn't see your reasoning on this.
Glad it got cleared up!:thumbsup:

 

[kwired]

This was in a school. The machine was older than dirt. The "repairman" had already moved the cord to an unprotected receptacle.

I always erred on the side of safety in schools. Every now and then I would have to lead a school administrator through a "guided meditation" of how his idea of "safe enough" would sound on the witness stand.

If they didn't like it, they could fire me. Being an electrician in the schools was basically a hobby -- I didn't NEED the job so I could impose my ideas of safety more easily than those who needed their jobs.

The "repairman" that moved the cord to an uprotected outlet needs replaced with a competent repairman or if the school maintenance man maybe should not be attempting this repair. Did anyone even open this machine up and check things out? I know you say it is old but it may only need less than $50 of parts or even just a little tape or other insulation over an exposed conductor to make it work, which cost much less than a new ice machine. If you don't want to look into it that is fine, your job then ended when you tell them there is something internally wrong with it. I have been in this boat myself a couple times - maybe not at a school but an appliance that trips GFCI's and owner or appliance repairman thinks something is wrong with GFCI. I have more than once had to show an appliance repairman what part needs replaced.

Ok, are we now agreed that a Class A GFCI intended for personnel protection is intended to trip on a leakage current of 4--6milliAmps?

Next step, I measured 30milliAmps of leakage, which was why, when you plugged in the ice-maker into a Class A GFCI, it tripped.

Now to the NEC:
210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel
shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.

...

(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations
specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

...

(2) Kitchens

none of the exceptions apply

100 I Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

This classroom had large commercial ovens, stovetops, and a sink, in addition to the ice-maker so I believed it to be a kitchen.

Now outside the code:

The repairman from Billy-Bobs Kitchen Appliance Repair and Bait Shop had been there, declared the GFCI defective. He had moved the plug from the GFCI to an unprotected receptacle.

The ice-maker had 5 times the allowable leakage current and was older than dirt.

I considered the probability that someone would remove the red tag and plug the ice-maker into the unprotected receptacle. I believed for the safety of the students it was prudent to prevent this. I was acting under:

90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

I know that the practice of cutting cord is not listed in the code but it was the practice and duty of electricians to cut the plugs off any 2-wire extension cords and 3-wire extension cords with missing grounding prongs on the last construction site I worked on. I considered cutting the cord effective.

Exactly one of those times I would have looked harder into the appliance just to find the fault and show it to the appliance repairman, just because he had no business declaring the GFCI defective and to be able to go

Fmtjfw

OK, since you have explained all the circumstances, cutting the plug off seems plausible for the situation you were in.

But I'm still pretty skeptical of using a clamp meter to try and measure milliamps. IMO, there is just too many sources of error. I've seen a clamp meter register over 1000 amps just because a small radio was keyed nearby.

Of course you are free to use any method you like, but just for the advise of the other person that asked, I'd suggest buying something specifically made to test leakage current.

Clamping a meter around both conductors of a circuit and getting a reading, no matter what that reading is, means some current is flowing outside the intended circuit, exactly how much current it was really was not too important in this case, I would still expect it to trip a GFCI if you are able to measure it at all.

 

[fmtjfw]

The "repairman" that moved the cord to an uprotected outlet needs replaced with a competent repairman or if the school maintenance man maybe should not be attempting this repair. Did anyone even open this machine up and check things out? I know you say it is old but it may only need less than $50 of parts or even just a little tape or other insulation over an exposed conductor to make it work, which cost much less than a new ice machine. If you don't want to look into it that is fine, your job then ended when you tell them there is something internally wrong with it. I have been in this boat myself a couple times - maybe not at a school but an appliance that trips GFCI's and owner or appliance repairman thinks something is wrong with GFCI. I have more than once had to show an appliance repairman what part needs replaced.



Exactly one of those times I would have looked harder into the appliance just to find the fault and show it to the appliance repairman, just because he had no business declaring the GFCI defective and to be able to go

Clamping a meter around both conductors of a circuit and getting a reading, no matter what that reading is, means some current is flowing outside the intended circuit, exactly how much current it was really was not too important in this case, I would still expect it to trip a GFCI if you are able to measure it at all.

Let's look at a few statistics:
1,000,000+ sq ft of buildings: about 20 campuses, some buildings built prior to 1900.
? dozen or so sports fields: lighting, scoreboards....

3 electricians (actually 2 electricians and a dufus).

Facilities all around the county. You can drive to each facility, spend 15 minutes, drive to the next ... takes about 10 hour to hit them all.
Relamp, change ballasts, repair broken switches, receptacles.
Install new circuits.
Wire computer labs for power and cat-5. Run conduit at each campus and co-ordinate with TELCO for high speed fiber.
Install and replace services from 100A/240V to 800A/208/120V and 480V 200A Y.
Rewire old buildings.
Wire room additions.
Bring power to trailer classrooms, install fire alarm and telephone systems in each.
Maintain and replace and install fire alarm systems, including door-lock and elevator interconnects.
Diagnose telephone key systems/PBXs prior to calling contractor for repair.
Design and install boiler control systems.
Maintain, with contractor assistance, 7200/12Kv pole line service on one campus w/failed pad mount transformer.
Equipment, including gas boilers, roof top units, gas water heaters, kitchen appliances .. when there was a problem the electricians were always sent first for diagnosis, then perhaps turn over to the plumbers.
Electricians sent to all "fire" incidents.

260 day contract, some years scads of overtime, some years, essentially none.


SO...

When I came upon a bad ice-maker (to be maintained by contractor) and noted that they had bypassed the GFCI protection, I didn't have the time to educate said contractor. The ice machine had the mechanical parts in the base of the machine, unenclosed, and no evident damage.

 

[kwired]

Let's look at a few statistics:
1,000,000+ sq ft of buildings: about 20 campuses, some buildings built prior to 1900.
? dozen or so sports fields: lighting, scoreboards....

3 electricians (actually 2 electricians and a dufus).

Facilities all around the county. You can drive to each facility, spend 15 minutes, drive to the next ... takes about 10 hour to hit them all.
Relamp, change ballasts, repair broken switches, receptacles.
Install new circuits.
Wire computer labs for power and cat-5. Run conduit at each campus and co-ordinate with TELCO for high speed fiber.
Install and replace services from 100A/240V to 800A/208/120V and 480V 200A Y.
Rewire old buildings.
Wire room additions.
Bring power to trailer classrooms, install fire alarm and telephone systems in each.
Maintain and replace and install fire alarm systems, including door-lock and elevator interconnects.
Diagnose telephone key systems/PBXs prior to calling contractor for repair.
Design and install boiler control systems.
Maintain, with contractor assistance, 7200/12Kv pole line service on one campus w/failed pad mount transformer.
Equipment, including gas boilers, roof top units, gas water heaters, kitchen appliances .. when there was a problem the electricians were always sent first for diagnosis, then perhaps turn over to the plumbers.
Electricians sent to all "fire" incidents.

260 day contract, some years scads of overtime, some years, essentially none.


SO...

When I came upon a bad ice-maker (to be maintained by contractor) and noted that they had bypassed the GFCI protection, I didn't have the time to educate said contractor. The ice machine had the mechanical parts in the base of the machine, unenclosed, and no evident damage.

Well I was not there so have no real idea of the condition of this machine or how much trouble it may have been in the past, but I think I could find the cause of the GFCI tripping without too much trouble in most cases, whether or not is worth repairing is another issue.