no voltage listing ?

[nowness1]

please, need some help with something. i have patent pending on a device. all parts have at least CE listings. some have ul listings. sorry for the secrecy but... it is a membrane type switch that is used on a computerized machine. the machine is listed by ul and another agency. the part pigtails from another membrane switch so there are 2 sets of controls. both controls plug into a pcb (94 V-O rated) and as far as i can tell has no voltage to it during it use and operation (could be wrong) it is of the same construction with actually better materials which are all RoHS compliant. i am about to go to market, and a potential customer. they are asking if i have the device ul listed. did not know that i need one if there is no voltage or low voltage involved. need some help on this please. thanks for your indulgence.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

First CE is not a listing and is not accepted by most AHJs in the US. It is a manufacturer's self evaluation of thier own product, not a third party testing like UL and the other Nationally Recognizied Testing Labs. Second even if all of the parts used in your device have a UL listing, that does not mean your device is UL listed. You have to have the completed device built to some listing standard and then pay a testing lab to verify that your device is compliant with that standard.

 

[nowness1]

please help me to understand..

please help me to understand..

so don...lets say i built a keyboard that jumps off the existing keyboard for a computer.

nowhere on the keyboard i have now from 'dell' is listed with UL. it does have a few marks on it, but not UL.

my computer is ul listed, it plugs into the wall.

under what standards of testing does my new device fall? or does UL just want to make some money for their listing.

is there not some low voltage (5v or less) or no voltage standards that apply or do not apply?

i can put a volt meter to the pcb and see if there is any voltage coming from the pcb to the device?
...if there is no voltage...why is UL need to be involved?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

so don...lets say i built a keyboard that jumps off the existing keyboard for a computer.

nowhere on the keyboard i have now from 'dell' is listed with UL. it does have a few marks on it, but not UL.

my computer is ul listed, it plugs into the wall.

under what standards of testing does my new device fall? or does UL just want to make some money for their listing.

is there not some low voltage (5v or less) or no voltage standards that apply or do not apply?

i can put a volt meter to the pcb and see if there is any voltage coming from the pcb to the device?
...if there is no voltage...why is UL need to be involved?

I have no idea what standards would apply to your device....you would have to ask a listing agency. As far as the need for your device to be listed, you said that your customer wants that so if you want to keep that customer, you will have to get your device listed. I would expect that you are talking about thousands of dollars to get your device listed.

 

[Hv&Lv]

so don...lets say i built a keyboard that jumps off the existing keyboard for a computer.

nowhere on the keyboard i have now from 'dell' is listed with UL. it does have a few marks on it, but not UL.

my computer is ul listed, it plugs into the wall.

under what standards of testing does my new device fall? or does UL just want to make some money for their listing.

is there not some low voltage (5v or less) or no voltage standards that apply or do not apply?

i can put a volt meter to the pcb and see if there is any voltage coming from the pcb to the device?
...if there is no voltage...why is UL need to be involved?

I have a Dell keyboard attached to an HP laptop. Look at the back of the Dell keyboard. There is a sticker with many listing marks on it (or should be).
Look on here about halfway down to the "UL Recognized Component Mark", mine has that mark, see if yours does also.

The marks look like this:

 

[petersonra]

so don...lets say i built a keyboard that jumps off the existing keyboard for a computer.

nowhere on the keyboard i have now from 'dell' is listed with UL. it does have a few marks on it, but not UL.

my computer is ul listed, it plugs into the wall.

under what standards of testing does my new device fall? or does UL just want to make some money for their listing.

is there not some low voltage (5v or less) or no voltage standards that apply or do not apply?

i can put a volt meter to the pcb and see if there is any voltage coming from the pcb to the device?
...if there is no voltage...why is UL need to be involved?

my keyboard says UL listed accessory on the sticker on the back. So does my mouse.

realistically, most people will not accept a device that is electrical or electronic in nature without some kind of NRTL mark on it.

\

 

[petersonra]

please, need some help with something. i have patent pending on a device. all parts have at least CE listings. some have ul listings. sorry for the secrecy but... it is a membrane type switch that is used on a computerized machine. the machine is listed by ul and another agency. the part pigtails from another membrane switch so there are 2 sets of controls. both controls plug into a pcb (94 V-O rated) and as far as i can tell has no voltage to it during it use and operation (could be wrong) it is of the same construction with actually better materials which are all RoHS compliant. i am about to go to market, and a potential customer. they are asking if i have the device ul listed. did not know that i need one if there is no voltage or low voltage involved. need some help on this please. thanks for your indulgence.

If you modify or even just connect electrically to a UL listed device with your patent pending device, you have do so in accordance with UL's requirements. UL might allow you to list it as some kind of accessory to the machine you want to hook it to. I don't see any way that it can do anything useful unless it can accept and switch electrical signals.

RoHS and CE are meaningless in the US market.

In any case, why would anyone buy your device? It is hard to give you advice on what you want to do because you are being unnecessarily secretive about it. If you have filed for a patent you are protected if the patent office actually issues you a patent.

Without knowing what the device is you want to hook it to, and how it is listed, there is no way anyone can tell you if what you want to do will even be accepted by UL.

Many machine controls are listed in such as way as to specifically preclude what you want to do. A recognized interface like USB or RS232 is something UL will easily allow you to connect to. Something that is less well defined, UL may not have any standards for devices that interface to it and part of the cost would be for them to evaluate what you are doing.

 

[nowness1]

device SGS certified

device SGS certified

ok so i have some trust here. device is a membrane keypad that is a copy of a keypad on a vending machine. the reason for the keypad is that the ada is requiring vending machines to meet the 2010 reach requirements. the existing machines do not meet the standard.

the keypad does, as i come to find out have SGS tested and certified parts, and have all been tested together. SGS is an NRTL in the usa.

pad piggybacks into the control board of the machine and is mounted on a usa made abs electrical box that is ul listed.

i have read ul 751 but see no reference to membrane type switches, only electrical switches..maybe i am missing something.

as a start up i can not really dump thousands into a test...i have already installed and tested myself. i have already dumped a lot of money into lawyers and research.

could SGS help me maybe? if all of the testing basically has been done already..by their company, getting a certificate from them should not be that big of deal should it???

i also saw some items regarding ASTM testing too...

which agency is the AHJ????

by the way thanks for all the great answers....

 

[nowness1]

WHSM2 (ul number)

WHSM2 (ul number)

i went to the UL website and found this for membrane switches. when i looked up the 'listed" files, there was only one.

i know there are thousands of membrane switches out there...are they all not listed or recognized??

boy this sure is confusing...

it will be field and factory installed.

thanks for all the views...

 

[petersonra]

You have gone from machine controls to vending machines. I seriously doubt there is any market for an add on device for such machines that does not come from the machine manufacturer. Have you considered selling the design to the vending machine manufacturer that it was designed around?

The thing is that if the ADA truly requires such a device, the people operating the machines are going to want to get them from the machine manufacturer and not some unknown 3rd party without any market presence.

It does not seem like there is going to be a huge market for a keypad designed around a single model or brand of vending machine.

It is going to be very hard to sell into this market without a listing on the device and some assurance it won't affect the warranty or operation of the machine itself. As a practical matter, the latter issue may well be your biggest hurdle even if you can get past the $5-100k to get it listed.

 

[petersonra]

i went to the UL website and found this for membrane switches. when i looked up the 'listed" files, there was only one.

i know there are thousands of membrane switches out there...are they all not listed or recognized??

boy this sure is confusing...

it will be field and factory installed.

thanks for all the views...

I am not sure there is a seperate category for membrane switches. a switch is a switch. I am surprised there is a listing for any membrane switch at all as they would appear to be a component and thus only eligible for recognition.

If it is going to be factory installed, just who is going to be buying it? The manufacturer? I just can't see them being interested in ponying up the money to a 3rd party when they have people who do this in house that already know how to navigate the listing mazes. My guess is they can get it added to their listing for a few thousand bucks. Why would they pay for you to get it listed when they can do it cheaper themselves and have control of the product?

I am not saying you should give up on the idea, but I just do not see the market for it or even how well a patent would hold up if one were to be issued. You really think that a patent based on where a keypad is physically located is going to stand up in court? I suspect prior art will be what determines whether this has a chance of standing up in court, and my guess is it can't because I have seen vending machines with keypads that are lower than normal. But, I am not a patent lawyer, and you just never know what will stand up in court after hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal fees are spent.

 

[nowness1]

device

device

[FONT=&quot]here's the thing. i filed the patent after finding out that the manufacturers just want to sell new machines. they could care less about the people who already own the machines. i am dealing with machines manufactured between 1989 and 2013. the patent office was actually very helpful after discussing it with them. i actually was able to speak to a multiple patent holder and former examiner. they actually helped me word my abstract and itl. property. best government experience i have ever had.

i also have the number 4 manufacturer in the world beating a path to my door. and have not offered for sale yet.

my market is the entire reach of the US government. ANYWHERE the law applies, which will also include other countries when the rules are adapted (pending legislation) i know my market.

i already have standing orders for many devices.

the device has part of my patent as intellectual property. went round and round with my partners, and the lawyers on that point stated it is exclusive to me... if the manufacturers try to copy it..i..my partners and lawyers will be very rich men. i spent the money(partners money actually) for the best lawyer in the state!

market demand is not an issue.

after speaking to many on this matter, including inspectors, manufacturers and designers, the device may need to be listed under recognized component labeling. SGS under their global labs, and their US ntrl should be able provide me with the service and provide the label., as all of the sub-components and main components have all ready been tested and certified by not only SGS but also by UL i am very well documented (now) on all parts, supply chain, etc..[/FONT] just my exact device that i had manufactured has not been tested.

if that is not the correct path...let me know!!! i trust everyone's judgement.

 

[petersonra]

[FONT=&quot]
after speaking to many on this matter, including inspectors, manufacturers and designers, the device may need to be listed under recognized component labeling. SGS under their global labs, and their US ntrl should be able provide me with the service and provide the label., as all of the sub-components and main components have all ready been tested and certified by not only SGS but also by UL i am very well documented (now) on all parts, supply chain, etc..[/FONT] just my exact device that i had manufactured has not been tested.

if that is not the correct path...let me know!!! i trust everyone's judgement.

I think you need to understand the difference between a listed product and a recognized component.

If I had to guess, I would suggest this would need to be a listed device, as it seems to be a complete assembly, as opposed to a component like a switch or a resistor.

How well you are protected patent wise is something for others to determine. If the guys putting up the money are satisfied that it is a lock, maybe it is. it is their money after all.

Vending machines don't have a long life. I don't know how much life is left in a five or ten YO machine. If they truly "have" to add this device to make it ADA compliant, then the owners of the machines are going to have to make a choice between spending money on your device or just getting a new machine. The cost of the device and installing it might make it unpalatable to all but the cheapest of machine owners. If it can be added for a few hundred dollars there might well be some market for it for a few years.

I don't know what "standing orders" means to you. usually to me that implies an order for a certain quantity per month or other period of time. Since at present you can't produce any that are likely to be accepted in the market I don't understand the use of that terminology.

 

[dicklaxt]

I was once involved it patent doings with a cable terminator,,,,,,,,,,it did'nt have any voltage going to it either but required UL listing.This certified to the end user that it had been tested with all claims of being suitable for 15 different cable manufacturers spec'ed cables and had been tested for leakage and pull out.

I think UL has it fingers in most everything.

dick

 

[petersonra]

I was once involved it patent doings with a cable terminator,,,,,,,,,,it did'nt have any voltage going to it either but required UL listing.This certified to the end user that it had been tested with all claims of being suitable for 15 different cable manufacturers spec'ed cables and had been tested for leakage and pull out.

I think UL has it fingers in most everything.

dick

Not that there is anything really wrong with it, but the OP's description of what he is up to suggests to me the stereotypical tinkerer/inventor working out of his basement. He may have a good idea, but whether he can sell it into the market place and actually turn a profit is something else. In the end, a lot of success in the new product market is based more on marketing than anything else. A big part of the marketing is going to be getting a UL sticker of some sort on the product. I think he is just going to have to suck it up and find the money to get UL to do their thing.

Even then, I suspect what the ADA supposedly requires or does not require is going to matter all that much to the cheap skates out there. They haven't bothered to put GFCIs on their machines either, and unless there is some enforcement that seems highly unlikely, I can't see too many of the cheap skates buying the product.

I knew a guy years ago who was involved in the vending machine business somehow. There was a pretty good cottage industry going on fitting bill changers to existing machines because there were a lot of machines out there that the owners realized were losing money because they did not accept bills so they wanted bill changers added.

it occurrs to me that it may turn out there are very few people who would benefit from a lower keypad. In most cases the coin slot/bill acceptor are located at the same height as whatever keypad there might be. If the guy in a wheelchair can't reach the coin slot to put the money in, what good will a lower keypad do him?

 

[kwired]

We know one person that will not be on the OP's marketing team:happyyes:

but the OP's description of what he is up to suggests to me the stereotypical tinkerer/inventor working out of his basement.

Anyone heard of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak?

 

[petersonra]

We know one person that will not be on the OP's marketing team:happyyes:

Anyone heard of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak?

You will note that I never said it couldn't be done. It probably can be done, but I would be willing to bet that if he submits something to UL it gets rejected after him spending a bunch of money on it. UL has ways they expect things to be done that if you accommodate them they make it relatively easy to get the sticker. If you do your own thing, it can be very hard. Given the OP's seeming misunderstanding about what CE, listing, and recognized all mean, and his apparent unwillingness or inability to pay UL to get the sticker, I suspect he is in for a tough time of it.

The thing is that for a few thousand dollars he could have had the thing designed by professionals that know exactly what it takes to get the UL sticker. There are plenty of small design houses that do this type of simple design for a living and could probably pump a UL ready design out in a day or two along with enough prototypes for UL to do the required testing.

I doubt the first Apple computers were UL listed. The whole NRTL thing adds a layer of complexity into the design of electrical and electronic devices that most of the basement inventors are completely clueless about and generally not well suited to deal with.

 

[kwired]

You will note that I never said it couldn't be done. It probably can be done, but I would be willing to bet that if he submits something to UL it gets rejected after him spending a bunch of money on it. UL has ways they expect things to be done that if you accommodate them they make it relatively easy to get the sticker. If you do your own thing, it can be very hard. Given the OP's seeming misunderstanding about what CE, listing, and recognized all mean, and his apparent unwillingness or inability to pay UL to get the sticker, I suspect he is in for a tough time of it.

The thing is that for a few thousand dollars he could have had the thing designed by professionals that know exactly what it takes to get the UL sticker. There are plenty of small design houses that do this type of simple design for a living and could probably pump a UL ready design out in a day or two along with enough prototypes for UL to do the required testing.

I doubt the first Apple computers were UL listed. The whole NRTL thing adds a layer of complexity into the design of electrical and electronic devices that most of the basement inventors are completely clueless about and generally not well suited to deal with.

There are many products out there that started out in someones garage, basement, or at least at some area of their home though. There is also realities of selling a product once you have developed it. Does OP's item need to be listed? Maybe. Maybe it sells better if it is but does not need to be listed. Does it need to be listed by UL, or is any NRTL acceptable? Maybe gets his patent and sells it to someone else, or gets royalties or whatever from anyone that utilizes his patent (getting into area I not all that familiar with). It is complex, OP has probably found that out already.

UL examines more than just electical items. Do these items need examination, and listing? Not always. But having a listing does increase consumer confidence in a product - but not many consumers actually check to see exactly what a product is listed for either.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... Does OP's item need to be listed? ...

The OP said his potential customers want a listed device.

 

[hbiss]

What I don't understand is how something like this is even patentable. I think if you cut a hole in the top of a shoebox the idiots in the patent office will issue you a patent and intellectual property copyright. This guy mimics a vending machine keypad, mounts it in a plastic box and sells it to be stuck lower on the front of the machine. Dunno, but I think I'm going to apply for a patent on adding receptacles and switches to a room so I can make every one of you pay me each time you do it. :happyyes:

-Hal