Disposal receptacle

[starsandstripes]

We are still under the 2008 Code and my book is MIA; does a receptacle for a garbage disposal in a dwelling have to be GFCI protected?

Thanks

 

[Ponchik]

NO.

Unless it is installed on the kitchen counter, or in the garage or outside. <<<I am being sarcastic.

 

[raider1]

Depends on the location of the disposal.

If the disposal is located in a kitchen as defined in Article 100 and the receptacle is not above the countertop then no.

If the disposal is located under a wetbar sink that is not part of a kitchen as defined in Article 100 then if the receptacle is located within 6' of the edge of the sink including below the sink then it would require GFCI protection.

Chris

 

[jumper]

Depends on the location of the disposal.

If the disposal is located in a kitchen as defined in Article 100 and the receptacle is not above the countertop then no.

If the disposal is located under a wetbar sink that is not part of a kitchen as defined in Article 100 then if the receptacle is located within 6' of the edge of the sink including below the sink then it would require GFCI protection.

Chris

You are good.:thumbsup:

I did not even think of wet bar sinks.:slaphead:

 

[raider1]

You are good.:thumbsup:

I did not even think of wet bar sinks.:slaphead:

I have made the call for wetbars in the past and had some very upset electricians who felt that the disposal did not require GFCI protection.

Chris

 

[jxofaltrds]

I have made the call for wetbars in the past and had some very upset electricians who felt that the disposal did not require GFCI protection.

Chris

And how is this within 6' of the outside edge of the sink.

Do you make them GFCI the switch for added protection?

If they wanted 'in cabinet' receptacles to be protected they would have said so.

Have you read the commentary as to why these receptacles need to be GFCI protected?

 

[raider1]

And how is this within 6' of the outside edge of the sink.

I take a tape measure and measure the distance from the sink to the receptacle.

Do you make them GFCI the switch for added protection?

Hell NO. 210.8(A) only applies to receptacles not switches.

If they wanted 'in cabinet' receptacles to be protected they would have said so.

Really? I see nothing the 210.8(A) to indicate that receptacles located within 6' of a sink located within cabinets are not covered by that section.

Have you read the commentary as to why these receptacles need to be GFCI protected?

The NEC Handbook commentary is no more enforceable then your opinion.

Chris

 

[jxofaltrds]

I take a tape measure and measure the distance from the sink to the receptacle.



Hell NO. 210.8(A) only applies to receptacles not switches.



Really? I see nothing the 210.8(A) to indicate that receptacles located within 6' of a sink located within cabinets are not covered by that section.



The NEC Handbook commentary is no more enforceable then your opinion.

Chris

1. How do you push your tape through the cabinet door?

2. Kidding about the switch but you knew that!

3. Cabinets have been considered in other areas of the code: Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible
by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages,
sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception,
or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered
as these required outlets.

4. Then I'll just trash my Handbook.

What if the receptacle in in another room via a doorway and within 6'?

What I had a closet in that area with a receptacle. Do you measure through the drywall or follow the wall? Does the door come into play?

You are enforcing an opinion. I am not 'allowing it', I just do not see the code 'allowing' me to fail it.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Not wanting to ruffle any feathers because I repect both of you guys, it does seem very inconsistant to require a GFI in one scenario but not the other just because of a definition.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Not wanting to ruffle any feathers because I repect both of you guys, it does seem very inconsistant to require a GFI in one scenario but not the other just because of a definition.

Most of us wear our bigboy pants here - let it rip - speak your mind.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Most of us wear our bigboy pants here - let it rip - speak your mind.

Ok.....I really don't see the reason a disposal receptacle under an enclosed wet bar sink would need GFI protection. If the receptacle was not enclosed, I can see it being required then. If the code requires the former, it should be ammended IMHO.

 

[raider1]

1. How do you push your tape through the cabinet door?

By opening the cabinet door.

3. Cabinets have been considered in other areas of the code: Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible
by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages,
sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception,
or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered
as these required outlets.

Yes, 210.52 has rules specific for cabinets, but I can't just infer that because 210.52 excludes receptacles within cabinets that 210.8(A)(7) does as well. If I have a receptacle within a cabinet located in a bathroom does it not need to be GFCI protected?

4. Then I'll just trash my Handbook.

Do whatever you want with your handbook but the fact remains that the commentary located in the handbook is just the opinion of the authors of the handbook and are in now way to be construed as an official interpretation of NFPA.

What if the receptacle in in another room via a doorway and within 6'?

I would measure the distance through the doorway.

What I had a closet in that area with a receptacle. Do you measure through the drywall or follow the wall? Does the door come into play?

I would not measure through the drywall but I would measure the shortest distance from the sink through the doorway to the receptacle.

You are enforcing an opinion. I am not 'allowing it', I just do not see the code 'allowing' me to fail it.

So in your humble opinion what does "Where the receptacle is installed within 6ft of the outside edge of the sink" mean? So if I have an appliance garage next to the wet bar sink that has a receptacle located within it, it would not require GFCI protection?

Chris

 

[K8MHZ]

Ok.....I really don't see the reason a disposal receptacle under an enclosed wet bar sink would need GFI protection. If the receptacle was not enclosed, I can see it being required then. If the code requires the former, it should be ammended IMHO.

Because a device with a 6 or more foot cord could somehow end up in the sink.

So in your humble opinion what does "Where the receptacle is installed within 6ft of the outside edge of the sink" mean? So if I have an appliance garage next to the wet bar sink that has a receptacle located within it, it would not require GFCI protection?

And that is how I would measure it. Not through drywall, etc. If a device with a 6 foot cord can sit on the sink's edge and be plugged into a receptacle, that receptacle would be 6 feet or less away.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This is an issue that has created a lot of havoc. As written Chris is absolutely correct but why does a wet bar warrant the gfci while a kitchen does not. The same is true for a washer installed below a counter. No way anyone can get to the receptacle but technically it requires gfci if the sink is next to it.

This would make a good code proposal.

 

[raider1]

This is an issue that has created a lot of havoc. As written Chris is absolutely correct but why does a wet bar warrant the gfci while a kitchen does not. The same is true for a washer installed below a counter. No way anyone can get to the receptacle but technically it requires gfci if the sink is next to it.

This would make a good code proposal.

Dennis there was a proposal to exempt receptacles under a sink from GFCI protection and it was rejected by CMP 2.

Here is a copy of what the ROP says

2-41 Log #686 NEC-P02
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Robert Messing, Excel Electrical Group Inc.
Add new text to read as follows:
Exception No. 1 to (7): Receptacles under the sink in an enclosed cabinet do not have to be GFCI protected.
Receptacles under the sink are not readily accessible.

The submitter has not provided sufficient substantiation to limit the requirement for GFCI protection
where installed within 6 ft. of sinks in other than kitchens.

I bolded the CMP statement in regards to why they rejected this proposal.

So it appears to me that the CMP agrees with my interpretation as to the requirement of receptacles under a wet bar sink to be GFCI protected.

Chris

 

[raider1]

Here is another rejected proposal for the 2014.

2-44 Log #3043 NEC-P02
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Frederic P. Hartwell, Hartwell Electrical Services, Inc.
Revise as follows:
(7) Sinks ? located in areas other than kitchens where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft), measured
horizontally, of the outside edge of the sink.
It is important that the means of measuring the 6-ft dimension be spelled out. A baseboard-height
receptacle 6 ft 1 in. from the edge of a countertop sink will be well within the 6-ft coverage zone if the height is measured
horizontally and not if measured along a diagonal line running from the receptacle to the nearest edge of the plumbing
fixture. This proposal clarifies that such a receptacle is within the coverage area. This particular topic is a routine area of
controversy in the field. The horizontal specification is used elsewhere in Article 210, such as 210.52(A)(1) and
210.52(C)(1). This proposal extends the same principles to nonresidential applications, for the same reasons.
CMP 2 will find on its agenda a similar proposal with identical substantiation to the above, also over this submitter?s
signature, which was based on the CMP 2 action during the 2011 proposal period. That version, erroneously, was the
one that formed the basis for what was incorporated into the Massachusetts Electrical Code (MEC), and it therefore
does not track the improvement made by CMP 2 during the comment period. Under the rules that apply to the submittal
of proposals from the MEC Advisory Committee, only text that is a verbatim transcription of text in the MEC may be
submitted as a proposal to the NEC. The wording of this proposal does incorporate the improvement made by CMP 2
during the 2011 NEC comment period. The submitter strongly agrees with this improvement.

The submitter's proposed text could be read to allow for the installation of receptacles within 6 ft. of
the outside edge of a sink to be installed without GFCI protection.
The present code text clearly states the panel's intent that the 6 ft. requirement is to be measured using the shortest
possible path from the receptacle device to the outside edge of the sink.

The panel statement with this rejected proposal seems to indicate that the 6' measurement should be done using the shortest path from the receptacle to the outside edge of the sink.

Chris

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis there was a proposal to exempt receptacles under a sink from GFCI protection and it was rejected by CMP 2.

Here is a copy of what the ROP says



I bolded the CMP statement in regards to why they rejected this proposal.

So it appears to me that the CMP agrees with my interpretation as to the requirement of receptacles under a wet bar sink to be GFCI protected.

Chris

If the cmp just thought for a moment they would see that there is a discrepancy between kitchens and non kitchens. Does the cmp have substantiation for requiring the receptacles under a wet bar as different from a kitchen?

After thinking a bit I wonder if they require gfci under the sink for a wet bar because a wet bar does not have the receptacle req. that a kitchen does and thus a HO may use the recep. in the cabinet. I still don't see the need when the receptacle is behind an appliance such as a dw, or washing machine.

 

[raider1]

If the cmp just thought for a moment they would see that there is a discrepancy between kitchens and non kitchens. Does the cmp have substantiation for requiring the receptacles under a wet bar as different from a kitchen?

After thinking a bit I wonder if they require gfci under the sink for a wet bar because a wet bar does not have the receptacle req. that a kitchen does and thus a HO may use the recep. in the cabinet. I still don't see the need when the receptacle is behind an appliance such as a dw, or washing machine.

Dennis,

CMP 2 has accepted a proposal to GFCI protect ALL 125 volt 15 and 20 ampere receptacles in a laundry area including those behind a washer that are not readily accessible.

2-47 Log #2564 NEC-P02
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Jay A. Broniak, GE Appliances & Lighting
Add new text as follows:
This form proposal is for requiring ground-fault circuit-interrupt (GFCI) protection on the laundry area circuit.
Section 210.8
All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in
210.8(A)(1) through (8) (9) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(9) Laundry Areas
As the requirement for ground-fault circuit-interrupters (GFCIs) has been expanded throughout the NEC
code, the amount of electrical shock incidents related to consumer products have continued to decline over time.
Increased usage of GFCIs within branch circuits of residential homes is a highly effective means of further reducing the
potential for electrical shocks. CMP-2 should require GFCI protection on the laundry circuit.

Renumber this as Item 10, based on the action taken on Proposal 2-46.

My understanding is that part of the discussion in regards to this proposal being accepted is that electrical appliances (such as washers and refrigerators) will breakdown over time and have leakage current which could pose a shock hazard.

Chris

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis,

CMP 2 has accepted a proposal to GFCI protect ALL 125 volt 15 and 20 ampere receptacles in a laundry area including those behind a washer that are not readily accessible.



My understanding is that part of the discussion in regards to this proposal being accepted is that electrical appliances (such as washers and refrigerators) will breakdown over time and have leakage current which could pose a shock hazard.

Chris

Chris I understand that but there are inconsistencies. The kitchen could have the same issues but they are not required there--- YET.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I can't wait to see the reactions to the afci being req. in kitchens in 2014-- at least in the draft