For Resi work, do you do kitchen without a "Cabinet Print"?

[wolfman56]

In the past, every time I got talked into doing the kitchen off the construction blueprint, I end up having to go back and move devices, for free. So I made a policy to never do a kitchen without a "Cabinet Print".

A GC I work for likes to hire a custom cabinet maker that just will not provide a cabinet print. The first time he talked me into doing it, the guy came out and made the layout on the floor. I ended up with two boxes that were four inches off! Because the floor was now tiled I could not prove that the cabinet guy did his layout wrong, and I had to run out and move boxes, for free.

Now I end up letting myself get talked into doing it again, same cabinet guy, because the layout was very simple, I was already into the job, and I was told that I will not get a print. So once again they want me to go and move a switch, for free. This time I argued with him and refused to do it for free. He's mad, he thinks it a little thing and that it should be included in the job. I think, why should I have to fix problems created by the cabinet guy, for free.

Will you do a kitchen without a cabinet print?
Will you do kitchens with only the construction blueprint?

 

[cadpoint]

Most of all of 90% of all the work ever completed involved drawings, but it was not in most cases residental.

Go to 40" or 44" AFF, assume that there will be a back slash and use metal deep boxes to make more joints in.

Remind your client(s) ((and I would talk to the Owner in this case)) that your not there for transitional installations that your there for a one shoot application on the electrical service.

Fee's have always been involved if there is a required change for relocations and your install is not up to some discretionary ideal thought.

Paper drawings would just proof that someone changed something, but still you shouldn't have to pay for that. JMO!

 

[billdozier 78]

Since you said residential and not custom I got to ask what ya need prints for. Their all the same ain't they

 

[Hv&Lv]

I have a cost plus builder that does me the same way. I move things on every house he builds. I know it is going to happen, and I charge cost plus for this. Actually, he doesn't care, he just tacks his 10% on top of my bill and submits it to the owner.

 

[Ponchik]

I always ask for a "customer approved" cabinet plans. If the plans change dramatically then it is a change order. Before sheetrock I review the locations of boxes and devices. I always consult with GC and/or with the backsplash people as well.

You must get paid for any additional work that was not your fault.

 

[growler]

He's mad, he thinks it a little thing and that it should be included in the job.

Do you have a contract for the work you are doing? Does it say that little things like that are free?

That's BS, a GC doesn't have any problem with charging a customer $500 for a small change and they cry like babies if you charge them $200.

 

[Fulthrotl]

In the past, every time I got talked into doing the kitchen off the construction blueprint, I end up having to go back and move devices, for free. So I made a policy to never do a kitchen without a "Cabinet Print".

A GC I work for likes to hire a custom cabinet maker that just will not provide a cabinet print. The first time he talked me into doing it, the guy came out and made the layout on the floor. I ended up with two boxes that were four inches off! Because the floor was now tiled I could not prove that the cabinet guy did his layout wrong, and I had to run out and move boxes, for free.

Now I end up letting myself get talked into doing it again, same cabinet guy, because the layout was very simple, I was already into the job, and I was told that I will not get a print. So once again they want me to go and move a switch, for free. This time I argued with him and refused to do it for free. He's mad, he thinks it a little thing and that it should be included in the job. I think, why should I have to fix problems created by the cabinet guy, for free.

Will you do a kitchen without a cabinet print?
Will you do kitchens with only the construction blueprint?

if i'm doing a custom kitchen, i want cabinet cuts. most cabinetmakers use
a cutting program that generates drawings with dimensions.

last one i did had a band of custom tile in the backsplash field. i met with the
cabinetmaker, with the owner present, and tossed up a laser, and we idiot sticked the
floor to find the highest spot. amazingly, floor was flat within 1/4".

then, HE made a elevation mark on the wall where he wanted devices at.
i set up the laser, and that is where they all went. nothing had to get moved.
he knew if they had to be moved, he was paying for it, not the homeowner,
out of his retention.

i will do the kitchen without cabinet cuts. there is a 25% surcharge added
to the cost. any relocations are extras, with an extra charge.

then i put the whole thing in smurf tube, and if i have to move stuff, i can
repull it. if the cabinetmaker is an idjit and doesn't generate drawings,
it's not my problem. price is now too high? there is always craigslist.

 

[goldstar]

In the past, every time I got talked into doing the kitchen off the construction blueprint, I end up having to go back and move devices, for free.

There's your first problem

So I made a policy to never do a kitchen without a "Cabinet Print".

Good policy !!!

A GC I work for likes to hire a custom cabinet maker that just will not provide a cabinet print.

Bad policy.

Now I end up letting myself get talked into doing it again, same cabinet guy, because the layout was very simple, I was already into the job, and I was told that I will not get a print. So once again they want me to go and move a switch, for free. This time I argued with him and refused to do it for free. He's mad, he thinks it a little thing and that it should be included in the job. I think, why should I have to fix problems created by the cabinet guy, for free.

The print is a little thing too and that should be included in the job. The print keeps everyone honest and held accountable for their plans or work

Will you do a kitchen without a cabinet print?

On new construction, the chances of getting an actual kitchen layout up front is a shot in a million. The only thing you can do (in terms of figuring $$) is figure a worst-case scenario and make sure you have enough figured in for receptacles and switches. The rub comes in when suddenly, low and behold, they want a double wall oven, 2 dishwashers, an island with pendant lights over the top, a food warmer and a second microwave unit. So no way would I do any of the work without an actual print.

 

[PetrosA]

I answered "sometimes" but I need to qualify that. Most of the kitchens that I do, I do together with the same installers and we've been working together for six years doing this. I will do some things without a print if I have to, but only in cooperation with the installers (prints aren't always available on time...). I've had to move a box maybe three times in six years with them. Kitchens that I've done with other contractors are a whole different story - nobody knows what's going on, changes happen at the wrong stage, the carpenter and cabinet makers can't coordinate etc. etc. etc. In my experience, working with a company that takes care of coordinating the entire project makes things go a whole lot easier and faster, and the customer is happier. The jobs where carpentry is done by Joe, cabinets by Amos, countertops by Frank, the customer is getting their own appliances and nobody is talking to each other are going to be a problem whether there are prints or not.

 

[infinity]

I voted never. Unless someone is going to pay to fix any errors after the thing is finished someone will have to take out a piece of paper and draw the thing out. Or at least layout all of the cabinets on the floor during the rough in.

 

[kwired]

Tell owners, GC, whoever that kitchen is one of the most expensive rooms per square foot in most homes, why wouldn't you have a plan for it before insulation and drywall go up? No plan makes it hard for many trades. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC, even some framing will need additional attention depending on final plans. A good custom cabinet maker is well aware of this and usually does get involved with the other trades where he sees necessary, It is the boxed cabinet sellers and installers that don't give a damn about working with other trades - they even give you a plan at rough in and when you come back to finish you find things have changed:thumbsdown:.

 

[Fulthrotl]

No plan makes it hard for many trades. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC, even some framing will need additional attention depending on final plans. A good custom cabinet makeris well aware of this and usually does get involved with the other trades where he sees necessary, It is the boxed cabinet sellers and installers that don't give a damn about working with other trades - they even give you a plan at rough in and when you come back to finish you find things have changed:thumbsdown:.

it's funny.... people will spend $77 sq ft on granite, and not redo the
wiring..... i did a service call on a house in huntington harbor, and
there was over $50k in the cabinets alone... and behind the granite backsplash,
1 1/2" deep in the wall, was a thirty year old, twenty five cent plastic box,
broken, full of wires, that a gfci won't fit into.

"i need that fixed", the homeowner says.... 'cause it had come loose in
the wall, and you couldn't put the device in it.

really? do you now? isn't that nice.

most homeowners plan like real estate agents. all bling, and no infrastructure.

if you have a chance to explain the value of doing it right, most folks
really want to do it right, they just don't know how. so a lot of what
we provide in a professional capacity is experience at doing it right.

information and education is foreplay for the change order.

right near that house in the harbor is a private dock.... and there
is a 75' or so yacht with a dingy on the back with a winch to raise
and lower it....

the name of the dingy: original contract
the name of the yacht: change order

 

[readydave8]

I voted never but need to qualify: I put up such a big fuss about needing elevations that at least if I don't get them, its not too hard to remind ho or gc that I tried to do my job right, its not my fault that something changed, I need to get paid for changes. Its an "I told you so" situation. But its usually a battle to get the cabinet maker's plans. The other factor I have going for me is that I don't work much nowadays. That wasn't my goal but I'm ok with it.

 

[kwired]

But its usually a battle to get the cabinet maker's plans.

It doesn't need to be. A simple explanation to HO or GC that you need the plans to be able to proceed should be all it takes. You can maybe nail on outlet boxes that are obviously in wrong locations to start out but not run any cable yet and maybe they will notice and confront you telling you something doesn't look right. Then you can bring up again that it is kind of hard to know where to put things if you don't have a plan.

 

[Rewire]

We no longer do new construction but we do get remodels and they always have a cabinet cut sheet. We also work for the HO and not the GC so we can sit down with them and build around the cabinet design

 

[readydave8]

It doesn't need to be. A simple explanation to HO or GC that you need the plans to be able to proceed should be all it takes. You can maybe nail on outlet boxes that are obviously in wrong locations to start out but not run any cable yet and maybe they will notice and confront you telling you something doesn't look right. Then you can bring up again that it is kind of hard to know where to put things if you don't have a plan.

Sounds obvious. But remember the difference between genius and stupidity: genius has limits.

 

[mlnk]

I set the boxes based on the blueprint. Then I go over entire house with the owner. Sometimes a door swing or cabinet or appliance has been changed. I try to get a picture of the owner in my many photos that I take. If there is a change on the finish it is an extra.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

A GC I work for likes to hire a custom cabinet maker that just will not provide a cabinet print.

I used to own a custom cabinet shop, so I am looking at this from the perspective of "why" the cabinetmaker won't provide prints. A lot of shops won't provide detailed drawings with a bid because it's very common to have a homeowner take someone's unique design and shop them around to shops incapable of unique designs. But that shouldn't apply once the job is locked in.

The most likely answer is that they don't exist...at least not the way you might expect them to look. An experienced cabinetmaker can go straight from wall measurements to faceframe layout without needing to make a plan-view drawing. These faceframe layouts are all that is needed in the workshop to build the cabinets. That's exactly how a custom shop did their layout when I worked for them back in college. The guy didn't have a computer, so all of his work was done on manila folders for durability in the shop. His plan-view was only for room dimensions, and below that was individual faceframe dimensions. Everything gets built from the faceframe.

Most of my designs were too complex to do this, but for a cookiecutter kitchen, this is all that is necessary. But I was also using a CAD system as far back as DOS 4.0 in the late eighties.

 

[kwired]

Sounds obvious. But remember the difference between genius and stupidity: genius has limits.

Well at least you have a plan to show them when you come back to finish and find out they changed the plans and never notified you. Doesn't mean there won't be any disagreements about the issue but at least you have some proof that what is existing came from a plan they submitted to you.

I used to own a custom cabinet shop, so I am looking at this from the perspective of "why" the cabinetmaker won't provide prints. A lot of shops won't provide detailed drawings with a bid because it's very common to have a homeowner take someone's unique design and shop them around to shops incapable of unique designs. But that shouldn't apply once the job is locked in.

The most likely answer is that they don't exist...at least not the way you might expect them to look. An experienced cabinetmaker can go straight from wall measurements to faceframe layout without needing to make a plan-view drawing. These faceframe layouts are all that is needed in the workshop to build the cabinets. That's exactly how a custom shop did their layout when I worked for them back in college. The guy didn't have a computer, so all of his work was done on manila folders for durability in the shop. His plan-view was only for room dimensions, and below that was individual faceframe dimensions. Everything gets built from the faceframe.

Most of my designs were too complex to do this, but for a cookiecutter kitchen, this is all that is necessary. But I was also using a CAD system as far back as DOS 4.0 in the late eighties.

And people bought your cabinets with nothing more than face frame layouts? No floor layouts?? A floor layout gets the electricians, plumbers, HVAC, and even framers most of the info they need at rough in stage. Face frame doesn't mean a whole lot to the HO other than they can see the openings in the frame and maybe tell which is door openings and which is drawer openings, at that stage they are usually more interested in the layout in the room with those kind of details coming later in the planning. As a cabinet maker you have to know the layout in the room or how do you design the sizes of the cabinets to fit the room? You may get away with minor adjustments to framing of the room at times but for most part you are limited to the dimensions given you for a total room area.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

And people bought your cabinets with nothing more than face frame layouts?

Did I say that I made cookiecutter kitchens? No, I said I worked for one in college. My shop was a high-end custom shop, where it was not uncommon for my proposals to be a minimum of 6 pages long, and some of them 20 pages. I didn't win my projects because they were cheap. I won them because the designs were unique and tailored to the personality of the homeowner. My homeowner meetings were more interview with them than measurements of the room(s).

In new housing developments, most of the houses are built before a customer is found to buy them. There is no customer approval. The GC and cabinetmaker discuss where the appliances belong, and that is about the extent of it. Those are cookiecutter, and they don't need detailed plans. I wouldn't take on jobs like this because it is boring, and I wanted to have every project unique.

When one of my customers passed-on last year, I was able to go back to the house during the estate sale and take the pictures I wasn't able to take during construction (no digital camera back then). My original proposal was supposed to be only for an expanding dining room table (like this one), but when the customer saw the care and thoroughness of my proposal, she fired the GC's cabinetmaker and hired me to do the entire house (and I was way more expensive). This was only 1 of the 8 phases of the project. It is African Ribbon-striped Mahogany with random box shelves (glass) on the left and adjustable shelves on the right. (Yes, there is built-in cabinet lighting in nearly every cabinet throughout the house, so I did have to work with the electrician on where he needed to make drops for everything. I wired the low-voltage side and supplied the transformers, and he connected them to house power.)

This was still back in the days of 2D CAD, so I had plan-view, Elevation-view, and detail view of all aspects. With all of the offsets, it probably took me several days before I could even generate faceframe views. If I did this today, it would all be done in 3D with SolidWorks.