Underground marker tape question

[K8MHZ]

300.5 (D) (3) requires buried service conductors (not feeders or branch circuits) to be marked with a 'warning ribbon'.

The definition of service kind of says that service conductors are POCO conductors, so the NEC wouldn't apply.

I just watched the POCO do a buried run to a meter socket and they didn't put tape in it. I was talking to one of the linesmen about it and he said that the NEC didn't apply to service wiring.

So, just where would be a place that this rule would actually apply?

 

[macmikeman]

It applies here, because the poco won't pull the wire thru the conduit until the Poco engineer stamps an approval, and he won't do that until you invite him to come watch you backfill the trench and put the marking tape in a foot from the top of the trench. Backhoe operators are not thrilled with this as you can well guess.........



In my humble, minute, and mini opinion, it got into code because the persons on that cmp were confused on the subject themselves. (nah, that couldn't possibly happen could it?)

 

[steve66]

Sometimes the POCO provides and installs the service conductors, sometimes the owner and contractor provide and install these.

If the owner and contractor provide and install the service conductors, I would say this section applies.

As to who provides what when, I think it depends a lot on what kind of day the POCO rep is having.

 

[K8MHZ]

Sometimes the POCO provides and installs the service conductors, sometimes the owner and contractor provide and install these.

If the owner and contractor provide and install the service conductors, I would say this section applies.

As to who provides what when, I think it depends a lot on what kind of day the POCO rep is having.

Now that you mention it, I remember doing a department store's refrigeration controls and another contractor doing the lights, etc. was pulling cable from the pole to the first disco (1300 feet). Forman dude told me that the POCO there would only provide to the transformer on the street and from there to the general service transformers was the owner's responsibility. This was a while ago, but if done now, I could see where the rule would come in.

 

[iceworm]

300.5 (D) (3) requires buried service conductors (not feeders or branch circuits) to be marked with a 'warning ribbon'.

The definition of service kind of says that service conductors are POCO conductors, so the NEC wouldn't apply.

I just watched the POCO do a buried run to a meter socket and they didn't put tape in it. I was talking to one of the linesmen about it and he said that the NEC didn't apply to service wiring.

So, just where would be a place that this rule would actually apply?

NEC or not, not putting in a tape is just plain moronic. Not putting it in correctly is equally idiotic.

It would apply any place good installation practice trumps idiocy. Not much you can do if the POCO supplies the ditch and the wire. However, plenty of UG service laterals are ditched and installed by the owner - maybe the last few feet is by the POCO. Being the NEC mentions it twice, and the work is by an NEC journeyman, I'd say it applies.

It applies here, because the poco won't pull the wire thru the conduit until the Poco engineer stamps an approval, and he won't do that until you invite him to come watch you backfill the trench and put the marking tape in a foot from the top of the trench. Backhoe operators are not thrilled with this as you can well guess.........

In my humble, minute, and mini opinion, it got into code because the persons on that cmp were confused on the subject themselves. (nah, that couldn't possibly happen could it?)

The percentage of stupid: backhoe operators, electricians, ECs, and engineers; appears to be uniform through out the earth. Most every job I've been on the spec is: the tape is between 12" and 6" of finished grade. An unhappy backhoe operator doesn't make the list of concerns.

In my humble, minute, and mini opinion, it got into code because there are ECs that dump in the wire, throw in the tape, and then backfill. Disgustingly stupid. So, I think this is one thing the CMP got right.

ice

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Anyone see this tape before?

 

[PEDRO ESCOVILLA]

yup, only we've got in yellow!

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It applies here, because the poco won't pull the wire thru the conduit until the Poco engineer stamps an approval, and he won't do that until you invite him to come watch you backfill the trench and put the marking tape in a foot from the top of the trench. Backhoe operators are not thrilled with this as you can well guess.........



In my humble, minute, and mini opinion, it got into code because the persons on that cmp were confused on the subject themselves. (nah, that couldn't possibly happen could it?)

That must be a local or utility company rule. The NEC rule only applies to directly burried service conductors that are installed via the open trench method. The NEC rule does not apply to service conductors installed by directional boring or service conductors that are in a raceway.

 

[hillbilly1]

It would be nice if the poco would put in a marker tape, I was repairing a parking lot feed they conveniently cut in two with a backhoe, covered back up, let the paver pave over it, and not tell a soul. When I had the utility locate mark everything, I knew exactly were the break was at. Our conduit was at 24", while theirs was at 18" and at a right angle to ours. This was a primary, not a secondary!

 

[iwire]

NEC or not, not putting in a tape is just plain moronic. Not putting it in correctly is equally idiotic.

For an EC to provide things that are not required by code or contract is moronic.

In this case marker tape is cheap, placing someone to babysit the backfilling and work with the excavators is what costs.

 

[Hv&Lv]

When I worked as a contractor for CP&L, we had rolls of this stuff laying around the warehouse. I asked about putting it in the ditch, and was told we weren't getting paid to install it, so leave it in the warehouse.
Now that I am employed by a utility, we install the tape in every ditch we open, including any splice pits. One thing I am especially happy about, we do not direct bury wire of any kind.

 

[kwired]

300.5 (D) (3) requires buried service conductors (not feeders or branch circuits) to be marked with a 'warning ribbon'.

The definition of service kind of says that service conductors are POCO conductors, so the NEC wouldn't apply.

I just watched the POCO do a buried run to a meter socket and they didn't put tape in it. I was talking to one of the linesmen about it and he said that the NEC didn't apply to service wiring.

So, just where would be a place that this rule would actually apply?

Some have mentioned this already, 300.5(D)(3) says "Underground service conductors that are not encased in concrete", it does not mention service conductors in a raceway.

As to whether or not NEC applies to underground service conductors, you must determine where the "service point" is.

If you are on the supply side of the service point, the conductors are under control of the utility, and NEC does not apply to them.

If you are on the load side of the service point the NEC applies to those conductors.

 

[steve66]

Now that you mention it, I remember doing a department store's refrigeration controls and another contractor doing the lights, etc. was pulling cable from the pole to the first disco (1300 feet). Forman dude told me that the POCO there would only provide to the transformer on the street and from there to the general service transformers was the owner's responsibility. This was a while ago, but if done now, I could see where the rule would come in.

It happens a lot more with underground services than overhead. And the rules always seem to change from one customer and one POCO to another.

The POCO will usually run primary to wherever the transformer is going to be located. (Usually, but not always.) I always try to get the transformer pretty close to the building gear so the owner doesn't have to pay for a long run of secondary conduit and wire.

1300 feet of secondary - that POCO rep must have been having a really bad day.

 

[kwired]

It happens a lot more with underground services than overhead. And the rules always seem to change from one customer and one POCO to another.

The POCO will usually run primary to wherever the transformer is going to be located. (Usually, but not always.) I always try to get the transformer pretty close to the building gear so the owner doesn't have to pay for a long run of secondary conduit and wire.

1300 feet of secondary - that POCO rep must have been having a really bad day.

I have been finding more often lately that POCO doesn't bring that primary in for free. But it usually still is an advantage to have less secondary conductor and pay POCO whatever they are asking to have more primary. Sometimes POCO wants the owner to install underground raceways and they pull their primary conductors through them.

I run into this lately on farm places. POCO tells the customer $6.00 a foot. Sounds expensive when going 1000 feet or more, but when I tell them how big of secondary conductor they need to handle voltage drop and how much it will cost that $6.00 looks pretty cheap.

 

[K8MHZ]

It happens a lot more with underground services than overhead. And the rules always seem to change from one customer and one POCO to another.

The POCO will usually run primary to wherever the transformer is going to be located. (Usually, but not always.) I always try to get the transformer pretty close to the building gear so the owner doesn't have to pay for a long run of secondary conduit and wire.

1300 feet of secondary - that POCO rep must have been having a really bad day.

No, he was being very, very wise.

It was in PVC, under the parking lot.

I was just walking out the door when they pulling it into a transformer. About a foot from the end, the head broke off.

That was at quitting time. Well, not for the crew doing the pull. Their bad day was just starting.