Calling all NJ AHJ's

[c_picard]

I'm interested in starting a thread regarding PV system installations in NJ, in the Photovoltaic Forum, but specifically want to ask a few questions to AHJ's that are inspecting in New Jersey.

I hope it's not inappropriate to solicit some participation here, I know from experience that the NEC forum is a bit more "high profile"

I'll start with a general question; Are the 500+ municipalities in Jersey all inspecting to the same code, and is there a "home rule" law? I have done quite a bit of work in several states, a few of which had No-Home-Rule legislation on the books. This obviously greatly simplifies being a licensed EC, because everyone is inspecting to the same NEC, or "Uniform Fire Code"(usually the NEC, sometimes with minor amendments).

Without getting too off-topic, I'll just add that consistent enforcement of the NEC provides for a safer installation, as well as being good for the economy.

Thanks in advance for any and all replies, Cheers.

 

[c_picard]

I'd like to add that I'm really hoping to dispell my own theory that Jersey inspectors don't actually read the code, trade mags, this forum, etc.!

 

[infinity]

I'd like to add that I'm really hoping to dispell my own theory that Jersey inspectors don't actually read the code, trade mags, this forum, etc.!

This goes for many electrical contractors as well.

Speaking as a licensed electrical inspector and licensed electrical subcode official I can say that NJ has a unified codes. Be it building, fire, mechanical, electric, plumbing we're all supposed to be enforcing the same thing. In theory that eliminates having different rules and enforcement in different parts of the state. There should be no home rule or "I want it done that way". Do you have a specific question?

For reference you can check out all applicable codes here:

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/codreg/

 

[c_picard]

One that comes to mind is regarding equipment grounds on the DC side, in conduit typically off of the roof. We have inspectors requiring 8AWG solid bare copper, even if protected by conduit, and when a properly sized EGC would be 10AWG. It should be understood that we cannot design for lightning, and even if we were, an 8AWG would not be sufficient.

 

[c_picard]

Another, we have inspectors calling out Wiley Electronics WEEB bonding jumpers for spliced sections of rail, a very specific request that is surely not in the code. Nationwide, there are other means to provide an effective and reliable bond.

 

[c_picard]

This goes for many electrical contractors as well.

Amen

 

[John120/240]

Another, we have inspectors calling out Wiley Electronics WEEB bonding jumpers for spliced sections of rail, a very specific request that is surely not in the code. Nationwide, there are other means to provide an effective and reliable bond.

It is the inspectors job to issue correction notices not to endorse one specific brand of product. The inspector cites XXX.XX

then it is up to the electrician to make the correction using acceptable materials & methods.

 

[goldstar]

I would just like to add to what Infinity posted. The vast majority of inspectors that I've had the pleasure of meeting all inspect to the same codes (BTW, all inspectors in NJ are supposed to maintain their CEU's for their inspector's licenses). However, there are some that make up their own rules because they interpret a section of the code to their liking. In many cases it would require a small amount of $$ and time to correct, and rather than argue you just do it. But there are also cases where you'll be cited for a violation that would require many $$ and time to correct, you know you're right and he's wrong, and the job gets hung up for 2-3 weeks (holding up $$ and performance by other trades) while you spend your time researching codes, putting them in writing, appealing to that inspector and/or the State to try and get the job passed. Now you have to decide to put up a fight or just make the change. The sad part of it is that any resident of that specific town is going to pay a lot more $$ to get a job done compared to other towns.

 

[infinity]

Now you have to decide to put up a fight or just make the change. The sad part of it is that any resident of that specific town is going to pay a lot more $$ to get a job done compared to other towns.

I encountered this on a job a few years back in a Northern NJ town that shall remain nameless. The inspector came up with his own rules that were not supported by the code. The homeowner was given the option to pay more money (do what he wanted) to appease him or hold up the process and fight him. Since his bad reputation was legendary they felt that they were getting off easy for a few hundred dollars and choose appeasement. Personally I wanted to fight because he was overstepping his boundaries but as Goldstar said the HO either can either pay, or fight and add weeks to the schedule.

 

[goldstar]

I encountered this on a job a few years back in a Northern NJ town that shall remain nameless......

Since his bad reputation was legendary..........

No need to mention names. All of us up here know who it is and what town we're talking about.:happyyes:

And if he's lurking here he knows who he is as well !!!

 

[c_picard]

Thanks for the replies. In the past few days I've had some more encouraging meetings with AHJ's, so maybe it's not all bad in Jersey!

A more general question, as a follow up:

Sometimes an inspector will see something he doesn't like, and does not cite a relevant, or any, code. When this happens, it almost feels like a mistake to even ask for a code article.
Is there a way that these questions could be phrased to not seem like I'm just being a smart@55?

Some back story, my company has installed literally tens of thousands of residential PV systems, and we design every system to the adopted code where we install. We meticuously track where and why we fail any inspections, and in Jersey we have a higher ratio of failures with no supporting documentation than anywhere else in the country. We still fail very few inspections, but we strive for 100% pass rate. When we make a mistake, our QC guys typically catch it before the inspector, and we correct.

Part of my job is to pinpoint areas where we can improve, and I am having a hard time nailing down exactly what we are doing wrong in New Jersey, because we are not getting that info from certain AHJ's.

 

[goldstar]

Thanks for the replies. In the past few days I've had some more encouraging meetings with AHJ's, so maybe it's not all bad in Jersey!

A more general question, as a follow up:

Sometimes an inspector will see something he doesn't like, and does not cite a relevant, or any, code. When this happens, it almost feels like a mistake to even ask for a code article.
Is there a way that these questions could be phrased to not seem like I'm just being a smart@55?

I wish I had an answer for you but I don't. Unless the guy is out to break your chops for some strange reason he should have no problem citing a Code reference.

Part of my job is to pinpoint areas where we can improve, and I am having a hard time nailing down exactly what we are doing wrong in New Jersey, because we are not getting that info from certain AHJ's.

It looks like you're part of a multi-state organization. Who is sealing your permits and do they have a valid NJ electrical license and business permit. As far as I know we do not have any reciprocity agreements with other States and they none with us. It could be that they are protecting their territory in some off the wall way. Just guessing.

 

[infinity]

Thanks for the replies. In the past few days I've had some more encouraging meetings with AHJ's, so maybe it's not all bad in Jersey!

A more general question, as a follow up:

Sometimes an inspector will see something he doesn't like, and does not cite a relevant, or any, code. When this happens, it almost feels like a mistake to even ask for a code article.
Is there a way that these questions could be phrased to not seem like I'm just being a smart@55?

Some back story, my company has installed literally tens of thousands of residential PV systems, and we design every system to the adopted code where we install. We meticuously track where and why we fail any inspections, and in Jersey we have a higher ratio of failures with no supporting documentation than anywhere else in the country. We still fail very few inspections, but we strive for 100% pass rate. When we make a mistake, our QC guys typically catch it before the inspector, and we correct.

Part of my job is to pinpoint areas where we can improve, and I am having a hard time nailing down exactly what we are doing wrong in New Jersey, because we are not getting that info from certain AHJ's.

Is the problem that the NJ inspectors are finding things that inspectors in other jurisdictions miss or are they simply making mistakes?

 

[c_picard]

As soon as I clicked 'reply', I knew that was coming!

Great question, and one that I'm trying to answer. I'd love to say that it is exclusively really sharp inspectors, because I sincerely enjoy working with the pros.
Part of the roadblock I'm hitting is that we don't have code references for failed items. The example I used before with the 8AWG equipment ground has come up on (3) occasions.

Given the scale that we are deploying PV, even something as small as requiring a larger conductor on the DC run adds up to big money.
We want to install safe, robust, reliable, code-compliant systems; If we are not installing a code-compliant system, we need to know which code we are violating.

I think a step in the right direction would be to respectfully ask for a legible red tag, at least we'll have a paper trail. I shouldn't make a mountain out of a mole-hill, but I have a rep for being a perfectionist.

 

[cowboyjwc]

EC: Why don't you guys all call it the same?
Me: Why don't you guys all wire it the same?
EC: OK, but it seem like interpretations change from city to city.
Me: :lol: I'll bet interpretations change from desk to desk.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Sometimes an inspector will see something he doesn't like, and does not cite a relevant, or any, code. When this happens, it almost feels like a mistake to even ask for a code article.
Is there a way that these questions could be phrased to not seem like I'm just being a smart@55?

When teaching I always encourage the contractors to question the inspector and if they can't provide a code section that can't make you do it. But I also realize that there are a lot of sensitive egos out there so I recommend they say something like "I wasn't aware of that requirement. Where would I find the code section for that?"

 

[cowboyjwc]

When teaching I always encourage the contractors to question the inspector and if they can't provide a code section that can't make you do it. But I also realize that there are a lot of sensitive egos out there so I recommend they say something like "I wasn't aware of that requirement. Where would I find the code section for that?"

Rick, it's called "picking your battles".

 

[c_picard]

I wish I had an answer for you but I don't. Unless the guy is out to break your chops for some strange reason he should have no problem citing a Code reference.
It looks like you're part of a multi-state organization. Who is sealing your permits and do they have a valid NJ electrical license and business permit. As far as I know we do not have any reciprocity agreements with other States and they none with us. It could be that they are protecting their territory in some off the wall way. Just guessing.

We hold all the appropriate licenses in every state we operate. A whole team of folks research all of this to make sure we have our ducks in a row before we even try to operate in a given place. Some states, and I think Jersey is one of them, require the license holder to be an officer of the company. I am a license holder in a few states and am very sensitive to the issue of scammers that "rent" their licenses...I can assure you this is not the case with the company I work with.

Thanks again