250 amp fuse blowing ( 480V 1800 rpm 150hp motor )

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Davebones

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150 hp 480v ocasionally blows the fuse ( 250 amp ) that feeds it . Motor meggs good . This is on a cold chamber test set-up and it drives a piston pump . Pump not problem as it not bound up . This only ocassionally happens . I did find out they are ocasionally doing up to 10 starts in a hour . If doing this many starts in a hour is causing this would it be advisable to install larger fuses ?
 

augie47

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When you mention "pump", I perceive a high torque start. If the fuses are not being used as overload protection and are not feeding a drive, N EC would allow a 350 amp fuse (larger in some cases). I am always hesitant to increase fuse sizes, but in this case, barring any other info such as manufacturer recommendations or engineering input, I would think seriously about a larger fuse.
 

gar

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Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
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EE
130306-1236 EST

Davebones:

As augie47 said you probably have a high torque starting load. To this you add motor inrush load and you might have starting current well over 1000 A.

10 starts per hour is on average one start every 6 minutes, but some of the starts might be closer together. Each start the fuse warms up very fast. Possibly close to its melting point. Then it cools much more slowly. If it does not return to normal ambient before the next start, then it will blow at a lower current. Further, there is a mechanical fatigue taking place each time the fuse approaches its melt point that may reduce its tripping point.

The trip time characteristic of the fuse is important. If you are using a standard blow fuse, then a slow blow may solve the problem without going to a larger fuse.

An important point to a patent of mine, 3,299,322 filed 1962 issued 1967, and assigned to Mechanical Products was the ability to tolerate very high inrush current yet after the inrush trip very rapidly with a very small overload. I have had no involvement since that time period, but I have to assume that features like this exist in modern electronically controlled breakers. Today it should be possible to create any desired trip algorithm.

.
 

Davebones

Senior Member
I don't under stand why they are doing up to 10 starts a minute . It has something to do with the type of tests they are running . They are saying they get some readings and shut back down for adjustments . The fuses installed are Class J , littlefuse JTD 250 ID ...
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
DaveBones...

Some advocates of Soft-Start controllers claim that the number of starts/hr is (without concern about size) "virtually" unlimited!

For conventional starting methods, I would consider 10 per/hour as extreme!

Regardless of the starting method employed in this situation (testing?) I would contact the motor manufacturer!!

Phil
 

Davebones

Senior Member
Have already sent a e-mail waiting for a response . Thanks for all the information as it is very much appreciated . Sure wish we had the internet years ago when I started in the trade .
 

augie47

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Please keep us abreast on the progress (and hopefully solution) so we all may learn.
 

gar

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Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
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EE
130306-1547 EST

Is it 10 starts per hour as per the first post, or 10 starts per minute. If 10 per minute, once every 6 seconds, I would sure expect blowing.

.
 

augie47

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130306-1547 EST

Is it 10 starts per hour as per the first post, or 10 starts per minute. If 10 per minute, once every 6 seconds, I would sure expect blowing.

.

OR WORSE :D I'd be looking for the starter to pass me as I was running.
 

jim dungar

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Wisconsin
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PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Has anyone bothered to look at the time current curve of the fuse versus the startup current profile of the motor (both hot and cold)?
 

don_resqcapt19

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Illinois
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retired electrician
The FLA that motor is 180 amps per Table 430.250 and Table 430.52 permits the time delay fuse to be rated at !75% of the motor full load current.
 

Jraef

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DaveBones...

Some advocates of Soft-Start controllers claim that the number of starts/hr is (without concern about size) "virtually" unlimited!
It's unfortunately true that some people say this, but they are wrong! You CANNOT increase the Starts-per-Hour capability of a motor by adding a soft starter. It does nothing to change the physics involved in acceleration nor the energy that goes into it. The curve of energy is the same in either case; Across-the-Line starting is a very high steep curve of short duration, Soft Starting is a lower curve but much wider. All you are doing is trading height for width, the area of the curve, representing the energy (and thereby the heat) going into the motor, is always the same no matter what.

For conventional starting methods, I would consider 10 per/hour as extreme!

Regardless of the starting method employed in this situation (testing?) I would contact the motor manufacturer!!

Phil
Phil is right, 10 starts/hour on a 150HP motor is extreme for sure, the standard design would be for around 3 starts/hour. But that is IF the load actually requires 150HP. If you NEED more starts per hour out of a motor, you can de-rate the motor. So if this is a 50HP load but they want to start it every 6 minutes, THAT may be why it has a 150HP motor on it. We just can't say from here, even the motor mfr can't answer that question, only the machine designer knows that for sure.

Nonetheless, the FUSE may be the weak link in this scheme anyway because IT requires a certain amount of time to cool down from the inrush and starting current. The fact that it only blows occasionally means that it is close to working reliably, just not quite there. One way you could possibly help it is to address what gar said about the fact that sometimes they are likely not waiting at all, so it's not really every 6 minutes. Get a motor protection relay that has a programmable "Minimum Time Between Starts" feature, or make one from a timer. Set it for 6 minutes and prevent them from restarting that motor too quickly, most likely that will solve the occasional fuse clearing. Give them a little light on the front panel that goes green when they can start it again.

I would not do it, but if you do decide to increase the fuse size instead, make sure it fits within the NEC rules, but also read the information on the overload relay. They are designed to be used with a maximum fuse size and if you exceed it, you are putting it at risk.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
150 hp 480v ocasionally blows the fuse ( 250 amp ) that feeds it . Motor meggs good . This is on a cold chamber test set-up and it drives a piston pump . Pump not problem as it not bound up . This only ocassionally happens . I did find out they are ocasionally doing up to 10 starts in a hour . If doing this many starts in a hour is causing this would it be advisable to install larger fuses ?
The starting current is likely to be around 1,000A. Regardless of load.
The 250A fuses may not take kindly to repeated doses of that.
 

Haji

Banned
Location
India
You CANNOT increase the Starts-per-Hour capability of a motor by adding a soft starter. It does nothing to change the physics involved in acceleration nor the energy that goes into it. The curve of energy is the same in either case; Across-the-Line starting is a very high steep curve of short duration, Soft Starting is a lower curve but much wider. All you are doing is trading height for width, the area of the curve, representing the energy (and thereby the heat) going into the motor, is always the same no matter what.
No, perhaps for lower size motors. See, for example, the note under table in the sub-title ''frequency of starts'' for submersible pump motors in
http://www.franklin-electric.com/aim-manual/page-3.aspx
 

Haji

Banned
Location
India
The starting current is likely to be around 1,000A. Regardless of load.
Not completely true. The starting current of an induction motor consists of an instantaneous current component and locked rotor current component. The instantaneous current component of the starting current is independent of load. But the locked rotor current component of the starting current depends on the load per
http://www.pumped101.com/cycle time.pdf
 

Haji

Banned
Location
India
Usage of soft starter can eliminate fuse blowing by reducing the inrush current of the motor during starting.
 

Davebones

Senior Member
Manufacture says 2 cold starts and 1 hot in a hour . They say if you have very low inertia you can increase the starts to 2 cold and 3 hot . Class J fuses were used as they give us more room in the controller cabinets .
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
Haji...

Your understanding that starting-torque, as well as accelerating-torque, is dependent on "load" is erroneous!

At "start" an induction motor is considered a constant-impedance element. The torque between standstill and its nominal operating speed is dependent only on the motor's design parameters and has nothing to do with "load!" However, "load" torque and inertia do affect starting-time!

If, as you believe, load affects the torque developed by a motor then there would no reaon to have different NEMA Speed vs Torque characteristics.

Regards, Phil Corso
 
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