Chinese chandelier. Ugh.

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PetrosA

PetrosA

Senior Member
Location
Lancaster, Pennsylvania
I have a new customer who bought a chandelier from Restoration Hardware. Price tag is around $5k and it's just under 300 lbs with the crystal on't. My job is to install a light lift and hang the chandelier, home run for the chandelier, move some recessed lights out of the way, install eyeball trims etc. on a 17' ceiling. Yesterday went without a hitch, as did today up till 3:30 PM when we unboxed the beast.

It has a mounting kit which the instructions show getting bolted to a joist and a quick link is used to attach the rod to that to hang the light. It turns out the drawing on the instructions is completely out of scale and what they provided is a 1" rigid down rod (which the canopy slips over) with a hook welded to the end of it and absolutely no way to attach the thing to the lowered plate of the light lift. The plate is 3/8" steel, 1.5"x9" or so, and evidently the only way the manufacturer intended the light to hang. There are no threaded fittings like with every other chandelier I've ever hung. The tech guy at Alladin has never seen a mounting means like this. The canopy has a UL sticker on it.

I've come up with a way to attach it to the light lift plate, so that's not a problem. I'm simply curious about whether the standard types of mounting methods using threaded rod and a screw collar loop are a voluntary standard or not, and does the mounting design of this fixture violate anything? I can't imagine how that steel plate and 1" pipe with a hanger welded to it for the quick link can be made to fit through any standard US box to contain the splice (and the chandelier instructions don't mention this at all) without doing some major damage to the box which will also be open on top. Crazy. How can this design be accepted for use in the US with the kind of hardware we use?
 
W

wolfman56

Senior Member
There is no way it's UL approved. Its probably a counterfeit sticker. You could check with UL to be sure. If there is one it still could have been fraudulently obtained by the manufacturer.

Look at the install instructions, it does not show an electrical box! It does not have any hardware to accommodate a NEC REQUIRED electrical box. So it could never be approved by UL, or ETL.

I would put the problem back on the customer so he can force the lighting store to make good with a proper light. Let them wast their time instead of yours.

If you do install it your taking all liability onto yourself because you would have to do a little engineering to make it work. In my state it would never pass inspection. Something is just not right here and its not your fault.

RW
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
It appears you can mount a pancake box then use the steel to bolt thru into a cross piece between the joists. Otherwise try and get some closely matching parts for this.
 
S

shockare

Member
Location
New York
Before you scream.. i do think that the fixture is listed correct. I don't have my current code book but loooking at
My 2002. 314.27 outlet boxes for ceiling fixtures can only be used for 50lbs or less otherwise independently supported
I doubt you will find a box listed for 300lbs. I would also look at 410.16 means of support

I have done a few lifts in the past with a pancake setup and always had a problem with the contact when the fixture was fully raised
there is an other type that uses a coiled wire but look like cr@p good luck
 
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Strummed

Senior Member
Location
NJ
shockare said:
Before you scream.. i do think that the fixture is listed correct. I don't have my current code book but loooking at
My 2002. 314.27 outlet boxes for ceiling fixtures can only be used for 50lbs or less otherwise independently supported
I doubt you will find a box listed for 300lbs. I would also look at 410.16 means of support

I have done a few lifts in the past with a pancake setup and always had a problem with the contact when the fixture was fully raised
there is an other type that uses a coiled wire but look like cr@p good luck
Click to expand...
It's not an issue of supporting it by the box or not. The problem is that the instructions don't show any type of box and installing a box would be quite odd.

I guess you could mount the steel plate to the side of the joist like it shows, cut out a 1 5/8" hole in the back of a pancake box, and then slide the pancake box up over the steel plate and attach it to the bottom of the joist. Does the canopy of the fixture label it's volume?
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Strummed said:
The problem is that the instructions don't show any type of box and installing a box would be quite odd.
Click to expand...

The instructions clearly refer to a 'junction box' that is existing.

This may be another example of how a UL Listing does not mean a NEC compliant installation.
 
PetrosA

PetrosA

Senior Member
Location
Lancaster, Pennsylvania
I'll try and answer some of the questions:

I'm not mounting it to the ceiling, but to the bottom plate of an Alladin light lift. The transition I came up with is a pin shackle (1700 lb. rated) that will go through the threaded coupling provided with the light lift and support the loop on the end of the pipe. This solution holds the top of the canopy away from the ceiling about 1", so we're looking at getting a medallion to bridge the gap. The light lift wiring is contained in a 4" round box and contact is via two plates that meet when light is fully raised. Wiring from the bottom (moving) plate will be contained in the canopy.

The instructions do refer to an existing JB, but that doesn't make a lot of sense since it could be located far from the joist which the chandelier will have to hang on (in the case of a static mount scenario). The canopy measures 8" across at the top and is basically a half sphere, so volume is ample, but unless you drill the 1 5/8" hole through the back of a box, there is no room between the rod and edge of the canopy to fit anything but a 3" round old work box.

I did call Restoration Hardware first to ask if there was any other mounting kit available. They had no other information than the instruction sheet that came with the light. Their next step is to have the vendor contact me to clarify the issue (7 to 10 days). I can just imagine how that call will go - Heavy Chinese accent, 500 word English vocabulary with no knowledge of US electrical terms. I may as well just shoot myself now ;)

Needless to say, I can't be making a very good impression on my customer. They're probably thinking, "A company like Restoration Hardware couldn't possibly sell anything that isn't right, so any issues must be a result of the electrician's incompetence." Thanks, Won Hong Lo!
 
hbiss

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
If you were to hang the fixture from the ceiling as shown in the instructions, couldn't you mount a 2x4 bracket box on the other side of the joist from the hanger? Would the canopy cover it? I don't think there is anything that says the fixture has to be attached to the box.

-Hal
 
PetrosA

PetrosA

Senior Member
Location
Lancaster, Pennsylvania
hbiss said:
If you were to hang the fixture from the ceiling as shown in the instructions, couldn't you mount a 2x4 bracket box on the other side of the joist from the hanger? Would the canopy cover it? I don't think there is anything that says the fixture has to be attached to the box.

-Hal
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it would cover it - I'd have to measure it exactly. I've seen hangers like this in Europe, but they're for a j-hook in a block ceiling or a wooden beam, and no j-box is needed. This just doesn't seem like something that should be allowed in the US considering our electrical codes...
 
PetrosA

PetrosA

Senior Member
Location
Lancaster, Pennsylvania
Thanks for the compliments :)

I can draw decently, or better if I take the time. I can also play the piano, do graphic design, photography, make pretty good scale models, excellent coffee, woodworking, and a bunch of other things which interest me to varying degrees, but... none of them put a whole lot of food on the table. I lived my dream of owning a coffee house for ten years, so that's behind me now. I also studied graphic design and did a few freelance jobs, so that's been satisfied pretty much, but at the end of the day a steady income is needed to pay the mortgage and put food in my family's belly, so I do what I learned from my dad (who was also a very artistic and talented guy). I try and apply what I've learned from my other interests to my electrical work which makes for some interesting solutions to people's needs/desires and I think that helps set me apart from other electricians to some degree and helps me find satisfaction in a field I probably wouldn't have chosen had things been different. We just have to do the best with what we're given if we want to find some contentment in life :)
 
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