I'm going to be bidding on a small Fire Alarm job soon. I've worked as an installer on a number of projects, but I have never done a bid before. I'll be submitting myproposal from a set of Simplex Grinell plans that will be forthcoming. I pretty much just plan on putingt in material and labor for pulling the cable and installing the devices according to the plans. Does anyone have any suggestions on other things to look out for on a job such as this?
Fire Alarm Bidding
- Thread starter jes25
- Start date
- Status
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Carefully, and I mean CAREFULLY review the plans and specs (if any). Send RFI's by the bucket load. This may at least cover you during the inevitable dispute resolution process. Understand exactly how the product is to be delivered. Know that design shops always put the onus on the installer to provide a "complete working system, fit for it's intended purpose" regardless of how little information they provide. And code compliant as well. Are you subbing to Simplex, or are you hiring them for a "parts and smarts" install? If the former, know whether circuits will be run Class A or Class B and the implications thereof. Is conduit required? 2-hour survivability? If you have to make a field splice can you use wire nuts or must you use a terminal block? Don't forget the red j-boxes and cover plates. How about meggering the wire? It's a popular requirement nowadays. Just make sure no devices are installed or you'll smoke them. Which means of course you can't install devices as you go and you have to come back to do the devices and access may or may not be blocked by another trade's work. Who is responsible for the as-built drawings, manuals, and customer training? If Simplex is your sub, worry about all the other stuff and you can easily have a marriage made in heck. If any bumps show up on the install, their labor is about $200/hr and likely includes a minimum call out of 2-4 hours. Expect to be blamed for every DOA device.
Simplex's business model, at least for larger jobs, is to get their panel on the premises any way they can. They will lose money on an install to get their foot in the door. That said, they are going to look for every opportunity to make sure (most likely at your expense) that they lose as little as possible.
bgelectric
Senior Member
As gadfly56 mentioned. Alot of the your scope will depend on whether or not you are simplex's sub.
Typically with simplex as my sub they will provide devices, final testing, (with your assistance), riser diagram.
As any other bid you will need to take a hard look at the specs and make sure you have everything covered.
The rep I work with is very helpfull during bid time as to how the system is wired. (ofcourse he is my sub) im sure he wouldnt be as helpful if it was the other way around.
Having done fire alarm work before is definatley a bonus when considering bidding a fire alarm project.
Thanks for the help guys. I won't be using Simplex as a sub. The GC is purchasing a package from Simplex that includes the devices, assistance with terminations, and the layout / plans. If I do this job I, will be subcontractor directly to the GC. Does that sound reasonable?
I'd be worried about startup, testing, programming, maintenance, and monitoring service that Simplex normally provides as part of their package.
Unless your contract doesn't include any of that.
PEDRO ESCOVILLA
Senior Member
- Location
- south texas
you're going to want some assistance ( as mentioned) in start up and final testing. last one i did (big addressable class a, system in a school,180+- devices) was fully tested by us ( one looong whole day) before AHJ final test ( another loong whole day) we had FA supplier there for assist on the first day to help with any bugs and show us how the system operated once powered up and (programmed) by them (supplier). i was just working, not involved in contract negotiations, hoep it helps. learned a bunch
Yes good point. I'll be sure to work that out.
Last time I did that kind of work the Simplex guy set up a folding chair at the panel, and did not move from the chair, period. They will not be helpful in any way, I would be surprised if they terminate anything beyond the laptop/panel connection. Check the wording closer. It can be annoying, but I understand they work to the letter of the contract. You will be their slave. If there is a trouble on the system they will point at the panel and say, its not ready, go fix it. They will program the panel and if you made any changes (including text), they won't rewrite the program, unless you are paying for it. I wouldn't agree to the system commissioning with them, unless they will be actively working with you. Ensure the contract shows a minimum of hours or something like that on their end. Its a good business model when you are the big guy with nothing to loose by sitting on your hands. Some day maybe I will retire from self employment, and work for them
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
yeah, you are selling labor, conduit, and cable.
things to look out for? yeah. simplex.
simplex is notorious for shipping short. i had the third floor of a hospital i did in simplex,
they shorted about a third of the devices, and the CPU....!
this, on a fast track with a $5k per day liquidated damages clause written in for the EC.
is it a hospital or health care? if so, and you have to deal with oshpod, take your number
you come up with, and triple it.
i'm not kidding. i'm really not. the simplex job above was a hospital, and i drew up what
i wanted to install in autocad, my as builts as it were, and submitted it, so i installed
my as builts instead of some dorky EE doodle.
oshpod will MAKE you put junction boxes where shown on drawing symbolically.
i also did a main runner down the hallways, with a 1" emt conduit, with a 5 SD box
every five feet, and 1/2" drops branching off to the devices. then, you pull a full house
of cables down the main spine, and pull loops out to each device, with no splices
in the main boxes at all, starting at the end of the hallway, and working back
towards the wire cart.
good luck
copper chopper
Senior Member
- Location
- wisconsin
I hate simplex, my company uses notifier most of the time, there devices are much better and cheaper. plus there start-up guys are top notch not lazy assholes like simplex.Also they call the fire marshall and make sure there design is what he wants.
pomsjosephm
Member
- Location
- New Haven, CT
We get called in all the time to service a fire alarm and of course 6/10 it's a Simplex in a large commercial building or complex. The owners get so mad
after I tell them it's a proprietary system and I can't work on it because we can't get parts even so, you must be trained and certified by the manufacture on panels like this otherwise you risk lawsuits etc.. 8/10 customer has us remove the system and install a brand new fire alarm that will not cost them 700.00 for a service call for changing a smoke
after I tell them it's a proprietary system and I can't work on it because we can't get parts even so, you must be trained and certified by the manufacture on panels like this otherwise you risk lawsuits etc.. 8/10 customer has us remove the system and install a brand new fire alarm that will not cost them 700.00 for a service call for changing a smoke
- Location
- Massachusetts
To sum it up ... Simplex sucks and I fully agree with all the points made about them above.
They screwed up so bad on a large job that we were doing the customers next huge building went with Siemens.
All they had to do was get speaker strobes to us on time to keep the job moving, instead they delayed things more than a month.
When it came time for testing they had three guys, we had four guys. We all hid and made them do all the running around.
They screwed up so bad on a large job that we were doing the customers next huge building went with Siemens.
All they had to do was get speaker strobes to us on time to keep the job moving, instead they delayed things more than a month.
When it came time for testing they had three guys, we had four guys. We all hid and made them do all the running around.
Flex
Senior Member
- Location
- poestenkill ny
Are there any elevator tie ins? Make sure your not responsible for paying an elevator tech for a day to tie in and test.
Flex
Senior Member
- Location
- poestenkill ny
Simplex systems are effortless to install. The techs are all smart and help us out with evrything. Must be this area of NY has it made because I take Simplex over notifier, and all others in a heartbeat.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Chief, you forgot the /sarc tag at the end of your post. You don't want people thinking you're serious! :roll:
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Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
i found a fire alarm installer that sets a new bar for inept.
out sucks simplex, and national fail safe combined.
this little office building i just finished.... it was about 90%
done.... the painter was shooting the inside before the trim
out dash, and parade.....
and i get a call from the fire alarm folks, who have been with
this project from the get go. they ignored a suggestion to
plan their pull stations and strobe locations during rough in.
they call me, two weeks from the end of the job, and ask if
i can send them an autocad floorplan, so they can get drawings
into plan check.......
what more can i say?
- Status