arc fault circuit tester

[Rewire]

Our inspector wants AFCI breakers installed on panel changes for the bedroom circuits. Most of our change outs are on older homes and we have encountered issues in the circuits on past installs. What I would like is to find a tester that would let us know if the circuit had an arc fault issue prior to the change out so we could bid accordingly.

 

[George Stolz]

To be clear - you want a tester that will tell you an AFCI will trip when AFCI protection is added to the circuit?

 

[Rewire]

To be clear - you want a tester that will tell you an AFCI will trip when AFCI protection is added to the circuit?

This is exactly what I want. A tester to check a circuit prior to installing the new panel to determine if their will be a problem with an AFCI breaker.

 

[cadpoint]

I think the math exists to do this but it would entail hands on to isolate the circuit(s).

My father with big on reading the resistance of a circuit or a wire and doing the math for each wires properties. He used known distances of wire to use against the circuits and employed the properties in the math.

It's still V=IR, but I don't think any piece of equipment exists that will do what you desire short of just hooking one up.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Why do you need a tester. The afci will tell you that. I would also fight the inspector on this requirement. The NEC does not require this to be done and , in fact, their response to the change that was proposed for the 2014 supports what I said.

 

[Rewire]

Why do you need a tester. The afci will tell you that. I would also fight the inspector on this requirement. The NEC does not require this to be done and , in fact, their response to the change that was proposed for the 2014 supports what I said.

I would like to know prior to installing a replacement panel if the circuit was going to have an issue with an AFCI breaker . If I knew ahead of time I could inform the client and establish a price for the correction. What happens now is until you flip the breaker its a crap shoot on if it will hold. If the AFCI trips you are then faced with eating the cost of finding the issue or going to the client and asking for more money to troubleshoot. The problem with going to the customer for more money is it is viewed as a shake down by some. I get "shouldnt you have known about the problem " from clients so I though they are correct I should know ahead of time so I am not springing an extra cost on them at the end of the job.

As for fighting it the AHJ has adopted this as a local ordinance, bad idea that we have to work with.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I understand but I would let the homeowner know that there may be an extra charge depending on whether there are issues with the older circuits. Communication is a big part.

you could make a tester with a small panel and an afci-- leave a tail out to test the circuits. Seems like more work then I would be willing to do

 

[kwired]

I understand but I would let the homeowner know that there may be an extra charge depending on whether there are issues with the older circuits. Communication is a big part.

you could make a tester with a small panel and an afci-- leave a tail out to test the circuits. Seems like more work then I would be willing to do

That means you are spending time troubleshooting during the bid phase that you may not be reimbursed for if you don't get the job. Something to think about.

You also will test things in the state they are in at the time you do this test. Who knows what loads are not running at that time that would have made it trip. Kind of the same crapshoot as if you just waited for the final install to see how it comes out.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I would challenge that inspector also.

 

[Rewire]

One of our selling points is our upfront pricing ,no surprises at the end of the job. Telling a client after they have agreed to a sizeable investment in a panel change that I may hit them up for more money at the end just doesn't work well.

 

[Rewire]

I would challenge that inspector also.

what would you challenge the AHJ said arc faults are required for bedroom circuits on panel changes.

 

[bobbymari]

Absolutly challenge inspector as this is not required for a changeout. Many older homes will be 3 wire cloth wiring circuits.I've had an inspector request this and asked to show me the code or local amendment requiring me to do this. As stated by the others, if you are just in the bidding phase you should give your service swap price along with the old "additional charges may incur, if arc fault conditions exist". That is if it is in fact even a local requirement rather than an inspectors personal preference

 

[kwired]

One of our selling points is our upfront pricing ,no surprises at the end of the job. Telling a client after they have agreed to a sizeable investment in a panel change that I may hit them up for more money at the end just doesn't work well.

Don't we all have this same problem? If you find a solution we are just as interested as you are - as long as we are not direct competitors on any jobs

what would you challenge the AHJ said arc faults are required for bedroom circuits on panel changes.

You can challenge the laws they have if they do not correspond to NEC, or any other generally recognized standards, but that means challenging the laws in general and not just for a specific installation.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

what would you challenge the AHJ said arc faults are required for bedroom circuits on panel changes.

You obviously did not read my post. AFCI are not required on a panel change unless you modify the circuit.

 

[kwired]

You obviously did not read my post. AFCI are not required on a panel change unless you modify the circuit.

I think from what he has said he realizes the NEC doesn't requiere it, but he said an AHJ has a local rule requiring it.

 

[bobbymari]

Another thought would be to include dedicated bedroom circuits as an additional line "if needed" with a comment that it may or may not be needed. Just give them a worst case scenario just so there are no suprises, just in case. Be sure to inform them to compare apples to apples on the bids, as others may not be up front about possible additional costs. We hardly come in as the lowest bid but being informative and upfront seems to work well

 

[Rewire]

You obviously did not read my post. AFCI are not required on a panel change unless you modify the circuit.

Here they are. The AHJ has the ability to adopt ordinances above the minimum standard set in the NEC. The NEC is MINIMUM. In Chi town everything has to be in conduit the NEC does not require that either.

 

[roger]

Our inspector wants AFCI breakers installed on panel changes for the bedroom circuits. Most of our change outs are on older homes and we have encountered issues in the circuits on past installs. What I would like is to find a tester that would let us know if the circuit had an arc fault issue prior to the change out so we could bid accordingly.

A Megger.

Roger

 

[Rewire]

Absolutly challenge inspector as this is not required for a changeout. Many older homes will be 3 wire cloth wiring circuits.I've had an inspector request this and asked to show me the code or local amendment requiring me to do this. As stated by the others, if you are just in the bidding phase you should give your service swap price along with the old "additional charges may incur, if arc fault conditions exist". That is if it is in fact even a local requirement rather than an inspectors personal preference

It is a newly adopted local requirement. I am trying to avoid the "additional charges" by determining ahead of time if the circuit will have an issue.

 

[Rewire]

This has possibilities
http://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdist...t-breakers/intellicarc/pages/intellicarc.aspx

Does anyone have one?