200 amp service entrance transfer switch ground / bonding

[echerbst]

I am installing a 200 amp generac ATS service rated transfer swtich and have a few questions.  It is along with a 20kw generator.  <br><br>I moved the neutral bond in the existing 200 amp panel to the the new transfer swtich.  The transfer swtich has a factory installed ground jumper bracket to the case.  The existing meter feeds the transfer swtich and then the transfer switch feeds back inside the existing main panel.  I ran a EGC back from the transfer swtich case ground bar to the connection in the meter pan that goes to the ground rod.  Then I ran another EGC connection from the transfer swithc ground bar inside to the existing panel.  I put a lug onto the panel case and attached the water pipe connection EGC to this lug along with the EGC from the transfer swithch.  <br><br>There is no longer any neutral bonding in the main panel.  Is that acceptable to run the grounds there or do I need to run a water pipe ground directly to a neutral lug in the transfer switch or am I ok.  There are no parallel grounds to feed neutral back on the ground but is that ground sufficient.  <br><br>I also had an inspector once stated he wanted to see a wire directly from the neutral bar to the ground bar of the transfer swtich as the factory jumper was not enough.  I told him NEC says it is and he just passed it.  Just wanted to make sure I was good.  <br><br>I know grounding bonding issues are always around and I appreciate any assistance.  <br><br>Thanks, Eric.

 

[jumper]

The text in your post is a bit scrambled with some html format code. Forums do this at times. It should look like this:

I am installing a 200 amp generac ATS service rated transfer swtich and have a few questions. It is along with a 20kw generator.

I moved the neutral bond in the existing 200 amp panel to the the new transfer swtich. The transfer swtich has a factory installed ground jumper bracket to the case. The existing meter feeds the transfer swtich and then the transfer switch feeds back inside the existing main panel. I ran a EGC back from the transfer swtich case ground bar to the connection in the meter pan that goes to the ground rod. Then I ran another EGC connection from the transfer swithc ground bar inside to the existing panel. I put a lug onto the panel case and attached the water pipe connection EGC to this lug along with the EGC from the transfer swithch.

There is no longer any neutral bonding in the main panel. Is that acceptable to run the grounds there or do I need to run a water pipe ground directly to a neutral lug in the transfer switch or am I ok. There are no parallel grounds to feed neutral back on the ground but is that ground sufficient.

I also had an inspector once stated he wanted to see a wire directly from the neutral bar to the ground bar of the transfer swtich as the factory jumper was not enough. I told him NEC says it is and he just passed it. Just wanted to make sure I was good.

I know grounding bonding issues are always around and I appreciate any assistance.

Thanks, Eric.

 

[ceb58]

After the decoding from Jumper, yes the N-G are now bonded in the ATS. 4 wire from ATS to main panel where neutrals and grounds are separated and isolated.

 

[kwired]

. I ran a EGC back from the transfer swtich case ground bar to the connection in the meter pan that goes to the ground rod. Then I ran another EGC connection from the transfer swithc ground bar inside to the existing panel. I put a lug onto the panel case and attached the water pipe connection EGC to this lug along with the EGC from the transfer swithch.

The additional EGC between the meter and transfer switch (service disconnect) serves no purpose if neutral conductor is bonded at each end of this run, and it makes it parallel to the neutral conductor. The ground rod connected to the meter is acceptable, but doesn't require the additional EGC you ran. The water pipe connection needs to run to service equipment, your panelboard is not service equipment in this installation.

ETA: Read 250.24(A)(1)

 

[PowerSupportElec]

This is what I find to be the biggest pain in installing a residential service rated ATS and generator, splitting up the grounds in the panel and re-doing the GECs. Some of those old panels are really packed in with a lot of circuits and spaghetti.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

This is what I find to be the biggest pain in installing a residential service rated ATS and generator, splitting up the grounds in the panel and re-doing the GECs. Some of those old panels are really packed in with a lot of circuits and spaghetti.

Exactly why you should include a new, larger capacity loadcenter with the installation.

 

[PowerSupportElec]

Exactly why you should include a new, larger capacity loadcenter with the installation.

I don't see that selling in most cases.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I don't see that selling in most cases.

Seriously? Seems like a no brainer to me. If the customer has the denaro to install a standby generator and ATS, surely they have enough to go the full distance and include the loadcenter.

 

[kwired]

Seriously? Seems like a no brainer to me. If the customer has the denaro to install a standby generator and ATS, surely they have enough to go the full distance and include the loadcenter.

Maybe. If money isn't a problem, good chance the loadcenter doesn't need replaced.Everyone else just saves enough up to install purchase the generator and are surprised when they find out what it costs as well as what additional items are still needed to install it.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Maybe. If money isn't a problem, good chance the loadcenter doesn't need replaced.Everyone else just saves enough up to install purchase the generator and are surprised when they find out what it costs as well as what additional items are still needed to install it.

My line of thought comes from the comment about the existing loadcenter being crowded which generally indicates that it is one of the older versions as the newer ones have a lot more room in them. Trying to separate grounds and neutrals in a crowded panel is a major PITA.

 

[PowerSupportElec]

My line of thought comes from the comment about the existing loadcenter being crowded which generally indicates that it is one of the older versions as the newer ones have a lot more room in them. Trying to separate grounds and neutrals in a crowded panel is a major PITA.

Most panels that I work in are older and most of them are crowded, I guess that's just because I am in an area with a lot of older houses.

kwired described the situation very well. From what I've seen, both in my own experience and from talking to others, the last thing someone wants to do when paying for an expensive auto generator is have another large expense added on. If it was an FPE panel or rusted out, then it would make sense. But no one is going to pay $800 or so just to make my job of separating the grounds and neutrals easier.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Most panels that I work in are older and most of them are crowded, I guess that's just because I am in an area with a lot of older houses.

kwired described the situation very well. From what I've seen, both in my own experience and from talking to others, the last thing someone wants to do when paying for an expensive auto generator is have another large expense added on. If it was an FPE panel or rusted out, then it would make sense. But no one is going to pay $800 or so just to make my job of separating the grounds and neutrals easier.

It's one of those pay me now or pay me later situations. I have no problem convincing customers to replace old equipment when I explain about future expansions to the system and not having enough capacity to accomodate them. A 20KW generator and ATS alone is in the 5K range not including the other materials needed and labor. I doubt someone spending that much money will decline a panel replacement and having everything "new".

 

[PowerSupportElec]

It's one of those pay me now or pay me later situations. I have no problem convincing customers to replace old equipment when I explain about future expansions to the system and not having enough capacity to accomodate them. A 20KW generator and ATS alone is in the 5K range not including the other materials needed and labor. I doubt someone spending that much money will decline a panel replacement and having everything "new".

lol, ok... :roll:

 

[kwired]

lol, ok... :roll:

Generator is maybe somewhat of a bad example. Better example that I run into is they will save up to buy a hot tub, then they are surprised at what it costs to connect it.

 

[PowerSupportElec]

Generator is maybe somewhat of a bad example. Better example that I run into is they will save up to buy a hot tub, then they are surprised at what it costs to connect it.

Agreed, especially because they know people who said they had their hot tubs hooked up for only $250 (without the bonding or any of the code compliancy :lol: ).

 

[kwired]

Agreed, especially because they know people who said they had their hot tubs hooked up for only $250 (without the bonding or any of the code compliancy :lol: ).

Then you explain to them what can happen and they decide you should do it right anyway, but maybe need to plan on scrounging up some money they did not anticipate spending.

Many people also want a generator but think you will make up some simple inexpensive (suicide) cord for them to connect it to their home with. I guess you can tell them to call a handyman if they want it done that way.

I hate it when a customer tells you how you are going to do an install - and it isn't code compliant. I want to just slap them and say "if you know so much about it why did you call a professional in the first place?"