Acupuncture facility

[Volta]

So, as far as I can tell, in determining the type of wiring needed in this type of building, it comes down to whether the care provided is 'medical'.

Health Care Facilities. Buildings or portions of buildings
in which medical, dental, psychiatric, nursing, obstetrical,
or surgical care are provided....

One definition found on the National Institute of Health follows:

Abstract
Western medical acupuncture is a therapeutic modality involving the insertion of fine needles; it is an adaptation of Chinese acupuncture using current knowledge of anatomy, physiology and pathology, and the principles of evidence based medicine....

If then, the practice of acupuncture is to be considered 'medical care', IMO the wiring in the appropriate areas would fall under NEC 517.

What'ch'ya think?

 

[north star]

= : = : =

Acupuncture does not have any electrically connected equipment
that comes in to contact with the patients.......That said, if there
will be any electrically connected equipment or appliances that
will come in to contact, or potentially, come in to contact with a
patient, then I would apply Article 517.

= : = : =

 

[petersonra]

= : = : =

Acupuncture does not have any electrically connected equipment
that comes in to contact with the patients.......That said, if there
will be any electrically connected equipment or appliances that
will come in to contact, or potentially, come in to contact with a
patient, then I would apply Article 517.

= : = : =

actually a lot of acupuncturists do use needles that have some kind of electrical doohickey attached to them. I think it is to make the needle vibrate.

my personal opinion is that it is not medical care as per the definition.

whether it should be handled in the same way might well be something you should discuss with the state board that is the AHJ. They might have a different view of it.

 

[GoldDigger]

actually a lot of acupuncturists do use needles that have some kind of electrical doohickey attached to them. I think it is to make the needle vibrate.

Officially it is to produce an oscillatory stimulus... There may not be any physical vibration.

 

[north star]

: ~ : ~ :

Learn something new every day... I am old school,
not familiar with those "newer" electrically connected
needle doohickeys. :dunce:

: ~ : ~ :

 

[Volta]

So, if I pull some definitions from the Ohio Department of Health, such as:

General Definitions.... (I) "Health care facility" or "HCF" means any of the following:
(1) An ambulatory surgical facility as defined in rule 3701-83-15 of the Administrative Code;

Definitions - ambulatory surgical facilities.
(A) "Ambulatory surgical facility" or "ASF" means a facility whether or not a part of the same organization as a hospital, which is located in a building distinct from another in which inpatient care is provided, and to which any of the following
apply:
(1) Outpatient surgery is routinely performed in the facility and the facility functions separately from a hospital's inpatient surgical service or emergency department, and from the offices of private physicians, podiatrists, and dentists; ....

General definitions.... (V) "Surgery" means any medical procedure performed upon the body of a living human being, regardless of the length of time the procedure takes, involving the invasion, alteration, cutting, disruption, destruction, resection, or removal of human tissue or bone by use of sharp-edged instruments, lasers, electrical cautery, cryoprobes, or any other medically accepted means for the purposes of preserving health, diagnosing or curing disease, repairing injury, correcting deformity or defects, prolonging life, relieving suffering, or for aesthetic, reconstructive, or cosmetic purposes. "Surgery" does not include the suturing of minor lacerations.

does that seem like a valid logical path to consider an acupuncture facility as a health care facility, generally?

 

[petersonra]

does that seem like a valid logical path to consider an acupuncture facility as a health care facility, generally?

It seems more like it suggests an acupuncture facility is anything but a HCF.

 

[kwired]

So, if I pull some definitions from the Ohio Department of Health, such as:

Originally Posted by ODH 3701-83-01
General Definitions.... (I) "Health care facility" or "HCF" means any of the following:
(1) An ambulatory surgical facility as defined in rule 3701-83-15 of the Administrative Code;

Originally Posted by ODH 3701-83-15
Definitions - ambulatory surgical facilities.
(A) "Ambulatory surgical facility" or "ASF" means a facility whether or not a part of the same organization as a hospital, which is located in a building distinct from another in which inpatient care is provided, and to which any of the following
apply:
(1) Outpatient surgery is routinely performed in the facility and the facility functions separately from a hospital's inpatient surgical service or emergency department, and from the offices of private physicians, podiatrists, and dentists; ....

Originally Posted by ODH 3701-83-01
General definitions.... (V) "Surgery" means any medical procedure performed upon the body of a living human being, regardless of the length of time the procedure takes, involving the invasion, alteration, cutting, disruption, destruction, resection, or removal of human tissue or bone by use of sharp-edged instruments, lasers, electrical cautery, cryoprobes, or any other medically accepted means for the purposes of preserving health, diagnosing or curing disease, repairing injury, correcting deformity or defects, prolonging life, relieving suffering, or for aesthetic, reconstructive, or cosmetic purposes. "Surgery" does not include the suturing of minor lacerations.












does that seem like a valid logical path to consider an acupuncture facility as a health care facility, generally?

You seem to be focused on the word "surgery" in those references. 517.2 definition of health care facility includes more than surgical related facilities.

 

[jim dungar]

does that seem like a valid logical path to consider an acupuncture facility as a health care facility, generally?[/QUOTE

Acupuncture involves needles. Your definition of 'surgery' specifically excludes at least one procedure, suturing, that involves needles.

If this is any type of health care facility, I am sure there are other local building codes that will need to be addressed. Have you asked your local inspector?

 

[Fulthrotl]

: ~ : ~ :

Learn something new every day... I am old school,
not familiar with those "newer" electrically connected
needle doohickeys. :dunce:

: ~ : ~ :

my acupuncturist in pasadena is head of the calif. board of accreditation for
acupuncuturists, in addition to having a private practice.

she has a number of devices, all with chinese labeling on the dials, and NO UL
listing... (they are not imported here) that provide various forms of electrical
stimulation to needles. a lot of it amounts to measuring conduction between acupuncture
points.... and stimulating things that aren't connecting well....

sort of like ringing out control wires in a conduit.... it's all about the wiring.

her practice is in a converted 1930's home, in south pasadena, on huntington drive,
and i can assure you that the wiring was not put in with health care facilities in mind.

in all honesty, i think it's a stretch to consider acupuncture clinics as needing the
same premises wiring as a hospital. it's not like outpatient surgery or dentistry
is being performed.

common sense, and no research was used in the making of this opinion.

note: she is flat amazing, as well. once i was driven in there, with a 105 fever,
and she effected a complete disappearance of all symptoms, in about 20 minutes
with a piece of burning string. i don't believe the string was properly grounded, either.

 

[kwired]

my acupuncturist in pasadena is head of the calif. board of accreditation for
acupuncuturists, in addition to having a private practice.

she has a number of devices, all with chinese labeling on the dials, and NO UL
listing... (they are not imported here) that provide various forms of electrical
stimulation to needles. a lot of it amounts to measuring conduction between acupuncture
points.... and stimulating things that aren't connecting well....

sort of like ringing out control wires in a conduit.... it's all about the wiring.

her practice is in a converted 1930's home, in south pasadena, on huntington drive,
and i can assure you that the wiring was not put in with health care facilities in mind.

in all honesty, i think it's a stretch to consider acupuncture clinics as needing the
same premises wiring as a hospital. it's not like outpatient surgery or dentistry
is being performed.

common sense, and no research was used in the making of this opinion.

note: she is flat amazing, as well. once i was driven in there, with a 105 fever,
and she effected a complete disappearance of all symptoms, in about 20 minutes
with a piece of burning string. i don't believe the string was properly grounded, either.

I don't necessarily feel a general practitioner clinic is necessarily same as wiring a hospital either, yet 517 still says it is a health care facility. But I am no medical professional either and really don't know just how invasive of a procedure will be done in this type of facility, or if they actually have separate rooms for more invasive procedures in most cases. I can only speak from my experience as a patient in general practitioners exam rooms the most invasive things done to me were things that could easily be done at home by a home health nurse or similar, suturing of minor lacerations still seems to be done in specific rooms in many cases instead of just a general purpose exam room.

 

[K8MHZ]

So, if I pull some definitions from the Ohio Department of Health, such as:



by use of sharp-edged instruments, lasers, electrical cautery, cryoprobes, or any other medically accepted means



does that seem like a valid logical path to consider an acupuncture facility as a health care facility, generally?

I don't consider a needle to have an edge, therefore I don't consider an acupunture needle to be a sharp edged instrument.

Also, 'or any other medically accepted means' is a bit of a grey area. Accepted by who?

 

[Volta]

It seems more like it suggests an acupuncture facility is anything but a HCF.

How so, do you feel the last definition disproves it as surgery?

You seem to be focused on the word "surgery" in those references. 517.2 definition of health care facility includes more than surgical related facilities.

Yes, for that string of definitions I am testing to see if the procedure is surgery.

There may be other ways that the procedure would be considered health care beyond surgery.

Non-Physician acupuncturist Licensure Information

Acupuncture is defined as a form of health care performed by the insertion and removal of specialized needles, with or without the application of moxibustion or electrical stimulation, to specific areas of the body. A physician in Ohio may practice acupuncture under his/her medical license, but the non-physician registration was established in May of 2000 under Chapter 4762 of the Ohio revised code.

The non-physician acupuncturist shall perform acupuncture for a patient only if the patient has received a physician?s written referral or prescription for acupuncture. As specified in the referral or prescription, the acupuncturist shall provide reports to the physician on the patient?s condition or progress in treatment and comply with the conditions or restrictions on the acupuncturist?s course of treatment. Before making the referral or prescription for acupuncture, the supervision physician shall perform a medical diagnostic examination of the patient or review the results of a medical diagnostic examination recently performed by another physician.

Granted that may not prove that the building is truly a health care facility, as defined by the NEC, but seems like it may be by the State Medical Board. Or at least, the procedure is considered heath care in Ohio.

does that seem like a valid logical path to consider an acupuncture facility as a health care facility, generally?

Acupuncture involves needles. Your definition of 'surgery' specifically excludes at least one procedure, suturing, that involves needles.

If this is any type of health care facility, I am sure there are other local building codes that will need to be addressed. Have you asked your local inspector?

No. I might, but as I am doing only very limited work to ready the space for the new occupancy, I will likely use HCF cable for my new receptacles and switches, and BX or MCAP for lights anyhow, because I feel it is worthwhile. But I would still like to consider the Code arguments for both sides.

 

[kwired]

I think most places will recognize it as a medical procedure. Why does a medical procedure need to involve cutting or poking? Isn't checking blood pressure (with no electronic devices) also considered a medical procedure?

The real argument here is this a health care facility. Medical procedures are performed in many places, outside of health care facilities and at the patients home, most other instances are maybe emergency care most of the time. When you have had an accident, or a heart attack or stroke, etc. the rescue unit people do perform some care to try to make you stable enough for transportation, they don't just scrape you up like a dead animal on the road and throw you into the ambulance.

 

[petersonra]

I am inclined to agree that you might get acupuncture defined as a medical procedure, at least for some purposes.

I don't see how an acupuncturist facility qualifies as a HCF under the code cited.

Having said that, given the minimal cost difference for the limited work being done, it might make sense to handle it as if it is.

 

[Volta]

I am inclined to agree that you might get acupuncture defined as a medical procedure, at least for some purposes.

I don't see how an acupuncturist facility qualifies as a HCF under the code cited.....

I tend to agree, I sure cannot say that I would come down on the side of requiring it if I were the AHJ- there doesn't seem to be any clear path that proves it.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I would put accupuncture and massage (legitimate massage) in the same catagory and say no to 517.

 

[Volta]

I guess my concern is something like a practitioner making contact with a needle inserted into someone's skin while say, adjusting the radio, or dimming the lights. If current can traverse the body while a path through the skin exists is strikes me as an event that could have been reduced at least in part by these methods.

 

[petersonra]

I guess my concern is something like a practitioner making contact with a needle inserted into someone's skin while say, adjusting the radio, or dimming the lights. If current can traverse the body while a path through the skin exists is strikes me as an event that could have been reduced at least in part by these methods.

how would you figure that?

 

[petersonra]

I would put accupuncture and massage (legitimate massage) in the same catagory and say no to 517.

how about illegitimate massage?