what is theft

[Rewire]

Had a conversation at a seminar about what is considered stealing as it relates to the workplace. I noticed that employers veiws were often different from employee.
Things like use of a company vehicle for non work purposes ( without owner consent)
removing scrap material from jobs,
taking home a receptacle or other small material for home,
using office equipment like computer for personal surfing,
making copies with copier of personal items,
using company metered mail or stamps for personal item.

these were a few of the items that brought different perspectives I have a basic view first you have to know what you are doing is wrong and second you still do it. I think scrap wire eas the one item that more employees viewed as not stealing than employers.

 

[ceknight]

....Things like use of a company vehicle for non work purposes ( without owner consent)
removing scrap material from jobs,
taking home a receptacle or other small material for home,
using office equipment like computer for personal surfing,
making copies with copier of personal items,
using company metered mail or stamps for personal item.......

Unless there's a company policy that makes allowances to the contrary, each of those items constitutes a theft of some sort. It's not really a matter of opinion.

 

[zbang]

Had a conversation at a seminar about what is considered stealing as it relates to the workplace. I noticed that employers views were often different from employee.
[...list removed]
these were a few of the items that brought different perspectives. I have a basic view first you have to know what you are doing is wrong and second you still do it. I think scrap wire was the one item that more employees viewed as not stealing than employers.

The term is per?qui?site

/ˈpərkwəzit/
Noun
A thing regarded as a special right or privilege enjoyed as a result of one's position.
A thing that has served its primary use and is then given to a subordinate or employee as a customary right.

In the legal sense, taking anything from the employer and not returning it is conversion ("Any unauthorized act that deprives an owner of personal property without his or her consent"). OTOH, if the company says "Personal copies are OK, keep it under 10 pages a month", then consent is granted. The same consent is often granted for small parts or low-value scrap. One place I worked offered use of the postage machine as long as any large use was reimbursed. They figured that a few copies a month, a couple of dollars postage, or free coffee all in moderation kept people happy.

Scrap? If the company says that it all goes back to the shop, then anything else is conversion/theft. But if there is no clear direction and the local custom is that the assistant foreman get it, that would be a perq. I wouldn't fault the AF for taking it.

I think we discussed something similar a couple of years ago.

 

[K8MHZ]

I have a pen from a gun shop a friend of mine owns. Nice pen.

It says, "Stolen from J & R Guns" on it.

 

[iwire]

Technically doing any other activity but working while on the clock would be stealing unless it is a sanctioned paid break.

The question really becomes how miserable do you want to treat your workers?

Can they use a company provided pen for personal notes?

Can they send an personal email on the companies connection?

Can they wear the company shirt off the clock?

I know a contractor who will not allow his PMs or any of the office staff to decorate the office they work out of because they are 'His walls' certainly he is right but it does not make employees want do anything extra for him.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I know a contractor who will not allow his PMs or any of the office staff to decorate the office they work out of because they are 'His walls' certainly he is right but it does not make employees want do anything extra for him.

Wow. Sounds like a Napoleon complex

There is a boss that needs to watch his back and his business. Hard to promote loyalty in an environment so friendly...

 

[Rewire]

I know a contractor who will not allow his PMs or any of the office staff to decorate the office they work out of because they are 'His walls' certainly he is right but it does not make employees want do anything extra for him.

I can see the validity of having such a policy but I would find a better way to present it than "my walls my rules".

 

[iwire]

I can see the validity of having such a policy but I would find a better way to present it than "my walls my rules".

I am sure you can.

But regardless of how you present it to the employees it will result in a less friendly work environment.

But the great thing about you running your own bossiness is you can do so anyway you like within the law. Including making enemies of those you need to help you earn your living.

 

[nhfire77]

Had a conversation at a seminar about what is considered stealing as it relates to the workplace. I noticed that employers veiws were often different from employee.
Things like use of a company vehicle for non work purposes ( without owner consent)
removing scrap material from jobs,
taking home a receptacle or other small material for home,
using office equipment like computer for personal surfing,
making copies with copier of personal items,
using company metered mail or stamps for personal item.

.

BOLD = petty crime = petty boss if its really an issue for the boss With in reason, running off 10 copies who cares. 10,000 is a different story

UNDERLINED- time to reevaluate a. that employee b. compensation in general One or both are sucking.


Its a poor business decision to chase those items. Case in point: Walmart has stopped perusing many petty shoplifters, they document the theft, the person, the car they drive. If it is repeat offender and it reaches the grand theft threshold, now its a felony and they act. Keeps the cops from wasting time on nonrepeat offenders. These are not moral standpoints, but a practical one. If you want more structure list 100 copies a year for personal use are ok in the employee handbook, but caveat abuse will lead to discipline. I admit, stealing is steal and as such is wrong, technically.


As George Carlin said 'We all have blood on our hands, its just a matter of degree.'

 

[Rewire]

I am sure you can.

But regardless of how you present it to the employees it will result in a less friendly work environment.

But the great thing about you running your own bossiness is you can do so anyway you like within the law. Including making enemies of those you need to help you earn your living.

If you hire people that petty then you get what you get.When I was in the service it was command policy that only one personal photograph could be placed on your desk I never considered it to be a rule I hated. In todays easily offended society rather than decide item by item what may or may not offend someone or may result in some sort of hostile work enviroment issue it is often easier on the owner to have a policy of no personal decorations or items. I view this as the same as not allowing bumper stickers on the work vans.

 

[nhfire77]

I am sure you can.

But regardless of how you present it to the employees it will result in a less friendly work environment.

But the great thing about you running your own bossiness is you can do so anyway you like within the law. Including making enemies of those you need to help you earn your living.

+1. ...who needs friends with employees like that.

 

[nhfire77]

Positional Leaders (bosses, owners) are miserable to work for, because they are not respected, but tolerated. Those organizations are destined for failure. Military is slightly different in the respect that you signed up knowing its well... the military, not a private employer.

If you are respected, they will follow your written rules, generally. Even if the boss is hated, but the forman/manager is truly respected and he respects the crew, they will do it for him. Any gray areas, or disagreements will get resolved without the word theft being uttered. When you post a memo above the copier explaining its theft, you have failed.

Scrap is something that needs to be outlined, you cannot really punish a guy if no one ever talked about it, despite the previous technically correct description of it being theft. I like this one Sun Tzu: ?If instructions are not clear and commands not explicit, it is the commander?s fault.?

 

[cowboyjwc]

I believe in rules as much as the next guy, but it sure is nicer to work for a boss that every few weeks surprises his guys at noon and say's "let's knock off for the day" vs's the one the says "why are you rolling up? My watch say's it's only 3:29."

Like I always tell people, if I wanted to listen to some one give me a hard time all day, I would have just stayed home with my wife.:roll:

 

[__dan]

Had a conversation at a seminar about what is considered stealing as it relates to the workplace. I noticed that employers veiws were often different from employee.
Things like use of a company vehicle for non work purposes ( without owner consent)
removing scrap material from jobs,
taking home a receptacle or other small material for home,
using office equipment like computer for personal surfing,
making copies with copier of personal items,
using company metered mail or stamps for personal item.

these were a few of the items that brought different perspectives I have a basic view first you have to know what you are doing is wrong and second you still do it. I think scrap wire eas the one item that more employees viewed as not stealing than employers.

The normal and legal losses due to incompetence, institutionalized waste, doing wrong but following orders, mismanagement, bad design or implementation, are far bigger numbers. More than four or five orders of magnitude bigger than what you listed. Like looking at an ant on the train tracks. Or seeing a nickel on the ground in a tornado.

Value is defined as what something costs in money. You listed zero value items. Running scrap back to the shop could have a negative value if it costs more, paying labor, to move to inventory, vs throwing it in the dumpster. Seen a lot of copper go in the dumpster. Do the numbers. What would an employee wellness plan cost ? What would it cost to either PO someone or to make them feel valued and engaged. No promotional money, no funding, but maybe there's an upside in an antipromotional expedition?

Many large companies carry annual losses statistically. Home depot knows exactly what their (normal) losses will be, each year and the years in the future. The names change each year but the same rate of incidents persists year after year statistically.

Certainly, stealing a gumball can get you fired or an arrest record. But bankrupting billion dollar financial organizations or millions of mortgage holders gets no press, no one has the focus of mind to study and understand what has happened.

Would love to post a photo of today's market chart. Not this one, the one with the fibonacci numbers on it. The GDP of entire countries changed hands today.

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=ndx

 

[iwire]

But they are stealing his pencils!

 

[hurk27]

vs's the one the says "why are you rolling up? My watch say's it's only 3:29."

I worked for a boss like that once for a very short time "VARY" he asked me that very question, he said work don't stop until 3:30 I said no problem, at 3:30 went and got in my truck and went to leave, he came out screaming that I didn't pick up his tools, I said nope and it ain't going to happen on my dime, told him to read the labor laws, and drove off, he called me for weeks trying to get me to come back.

Picking up the tools, cleaning the job site, and any other task where you do not have control over your time then you are on his clock, its in the labor laws, if he wants you to pickup or clean up after the end of the shift then he has to pay for this extra time as it is part of the job.

A good rule of thumb is treat your workers as you would want to be treated, be assertive and consistent about the rules and repercussions when they break the rules, being consistent with the rules and repercussions of breaking them will instill a clear understanding that they won't try to play games to see what they can get away with as a child will do with their parents, but always remember they are human just like you, and want to be treated with the same respect and trust that you want from them, if they are supposed to be already experienced then don't micro manage them as if they need this then you don't need them, give them a the task to do, tell them how you want it to be done, but don't stand over their shoulder and micro manage them, if they don't follow what you want then see if maybe your not communicating correctly, as communication break downs is one of the biggest ways to loose good employees and is one of the most common faults for workers not following what you want, I have wrote a few hand books for companies I have worked for, that spelled out what I expected from my workers under me, I wont micro manage someone because if I have to then I don't need that person if they claim to be a experienced electrician, if I have new inexperienced workers then I put them with someone who will work with them and keep an eye on them, but I always tell them to show them what to do and tell them to ask about anything they don't understand, check on them from time to time just to see if the job is going in the right direction and ask maybe if they have any questions, but the more respect and trust you give them to do the job correctly the more they will try to meet your expectations if they are an employee who is worth keeping.

My rules were just like I had for my kids, Do what is expected and everything is ok, do more then what is expected and I will reward you, do less and I will discipline, I usually have a fair margin to what is expected and what is above and below the expected level because I know we all do not work the same, but not getting work out because I see you just not trying or talking on your phone or goofing off then we will have a problem, I simply ask them if they are not interested in electrical work then they need to find a job that does interest them, as we all know we need to find work we like to do otherwise we will never excel at the level we need if we have no interest in what we are doing and matching workers with jobs they have an interest in goes a long way to getting and keeping good employees.

Sorry for the ramble just wanted to share some incite I have learned over the years

 

[Rewire]

I sometimes wonder if it is a generation thing but when I was comming up through the ranks a boss that let you knock off early and paid for eight or let lunch go a little long was a guy you appreciated but if you worked for a boss that expected eight for eight you gave him his eight and it was no big deal. I notice with some of the younger workers they expect you to give them slack and let them cut out early and if you dont somehow you are wrong or a bad boss. I was taught that you walk in on your time and walk out on the bosses time and that always seemed a fair shake but kids today want to walk in and walk out on the bosses dime .

 

[PetrosA]

I think overall our country has changed in ways that young people could feel like there's no way to get a fair shake at work, no matter what you do. The pressure on employers is also greater than it's ever been, so no wonder many of them don't feel comfortable being totally human to their employees. If it isn't taxes and expenses, it's threats of lawsuits or something else.

That being said, I think most of the other things on that list are easily solved with good communication. Figure out in advance who the scrap belongs to (if it's not being tracked, I'd actually assume it belongs to the customer, not the boss...); be clear about the company vehicle, etc. etc.

Cell phones and internet have changed the workplace. When I started back in the 80s, if I got a message from home, I had to ask the owner whether I could use the shop phone to call back. Now that's not an issue, but some guys get carried away with how long they talk on the phone and it has to be addressed. Surfing on the company computer would seem unlikely for an electrician, but office staff would certainly have time to do that. I don't think you can stop it any more than you can stop people from picking their noses when no one is looking.

 

[sii]

Two examples I would like opinions on: 1) Several years ago I was asked to remove some old wiring that had fed a building that had been torn down. It amounted to just under 600 lbs of copper. It seemed kind of silly to throw it away so I asked my supervisor at the time and his response was, "It has to go in the dumpster, after that I don't care what happens to it." I was a little nervous about taking it so I asked the company VP. His response was, "We are not in the business of selling scrap." I asked him to clarify and got the exact same response with a large grin on his face. Is that stealing? 2) We have a rotating on-call schedule. We have no third shift electrician and I normally come to work at 4:30 am. I get called in occasionally within a couple hours of when I would normally arrive, fix the problem and then stay for my normal work day. Our payroll department refuses to pay me call-in pay for these occasions because I am "going to be here soon anyway". Are they stealing from me? According to DOL, it's legal but it makes me :rant:. Apologies as the forum refuses to accept my pressing of the ENTER button today.

 

[kwired]

Two examples I would like opinions on: 1) Several years ago I was asked to remove some old wiring that had fed a building that had been torn down. It amounted to just under 600 lbs of copper. It seemed kind of silly to throw it away so I asked my supervisor at the time and his response was, "It has to go in the dumpster, after that I don't care what happens to it." I was a little nervous about taking it so I asked the company VP. His response was, "We are not in the business of selling scrap." I asked him to clarify and got the exact same response with a large grin on his face. Is that stealing? 2) We have a rotating on-call schedule. We have no third shift electrician and I normally come to work at 4:30 am. I get called in occasionally within a couple hours of when I would normally arrive, fix the problem and then stay for my normal work day. Our payroll department refuses to pay me call-in pay for these occasions because I am "going to be here soon anyway". Are they stealing from me? According to DOL, it's legal but it makes me :rant:. Apologies as the forum refuses to accept my pressing of the ENTER button today.

I think if I were you I would punch out when the call in activity ended. If it doesn't end before regular shift time then punch out anyway at shift time and then punch back in. At least you will have more evidence of the extra duty should you ever need it. And don't do anything for your employer during the time you are punched out.

As far as not being in the business of selling scrap, I can understand that, but yet to be a decent steward of our planet we are also being pushed to recycle things, and this is one thing that is financially worth while. They could still donate this scrap to a charity or something like that and let them recycle it, and they would be more welcomed by the community too. We have church youth groups that are always collecting recyclables to raise funds, copper would make most of what they collect look foolish, when they get the check for it.