Touch-Plate Lighting Controls

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goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Has anyone had experience installing or replacing these old central lighting systems. I need some advice and direction. These original ones were installed in a $10M house. They had these switching relays installed where the line voltage was spliced on the inside of the junction box and the low voltage switching was spliced on the outside. From what I can tell the switch plates were wired with multi-conductor telephone wire. There is a problem where some lights are on but cannot be switched off. From what I'm reading there is probably a button somewhere that is locked in the "on" position. This is partially what the installation looks like. There are at least (9) 12 or 15 circuit modules that I have found. You can see that there is a legend on the front of the panels but that's where it ends. There's no wiring legend. It would take an extensive amount of time for me just to do exploratory work tracing down the switch locations :





I found that this company is still in existence and the newer stuff looks like it is a better quality design than the original (and very expensive I might add):

http://www.touchplate.com/zonez.php

Thanks in advance.
 

jusme123

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
JW
...its going to take time and money to sort all that out, luckily its installed in a 10 million dollar house , they can well afford to pay the bill if they want it fixed/updated.
 
you might want to try and sub this one out to T. J Wiggins. Hard to tell from the pic, but it looks like the phone number has 7 digits.


Seriously, when I ran across a similar one of these in a 3 bdrm ranch a few years ago, I knew sorting it out was going to be time consuming and a PITA
 
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goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
...its going to take time and money to sort all that out, luckily its installed in a 10 million dollar house , they can well afford to pay the bill if they want it fixed/updated.
The house belongs to a famous musician but he bought the house with this stuff already installed. They're in the process of trying to sell it. It has a pool house (that I could probably live in comfortably), a built-in spa tub, an exercise room (with every machine you could think of) second to Gold's Gym, a built-in pool, a home theater HOUSE, recording studio, maids quarters (aside from the 4 add'l bedrooms and 5 baths), just to mention a few things. I think they dropped the price down to $6.5M. Are you interested ???
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
you might want to try and sub this one out to T. J Wiggins. Hard to tell from the pic, but it looks like the phone number has 7 digits.


Seriously, when I ran across a similar one of these in a 3 bdrm ranch a few years ago, I knew sorting it out was going to be time consuming and a PITA
I've already suggested that but they did such a crap job to begin with I would hate for this customer to have to pay these people to do another crap job and band-aid repair the gear. We're probably looking at approx $20K in new replacement materials and 3-4 solid weeks worth of my time to sort out and replace the head-end equipment and wall switches. I might as well take one of the rooms and live there. At least I won't have to travel 1 hour each way to get there and back.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
These are what is called LV controlled lighting, I think GE was the main manufacture of them.

They are a very simple system each relay has two coils one for on and one for off and if you have the version to provide a light to let you know when light is on there would be a contact in the relay and a forth wire that would feed the pilot light in the switch otherwise you would only have three wires at the relay, the coils would flip flop the contacts on or off depending on which coil was energized, from the transformer one conductor would go to the common on the relay, the other would go to the common on the momentary push button switch's.

The low voltage wiring was usually 18/3 or 18/4 door bell wire, anything smaller would cause problems on long runs, if there is master switch's they would have runs from the relays/lights that they wanted the master switch to operate and it would have a rotary select switch above a set of off and on push buttons, many times master bedrooms and or family rooms would have a table top unit that connected to a wall jack through a milticonductor cable, that allowed the owner to control many lights without getting up, there is also motorized all on and all off units that would turn on/off every light in the house, or selected lights, also they had dimmers that were motorized with the actual dimmer in the main relay panel, hole the on button and the lights would get brighter, hold the off button and the lights would dim till they turned off.

I have installed many of them back in the W's when they were the thing, most had the relays located in a K/O on the box for the fixture, they snapped in from the inside of the box with the LEV connection on the outside of the box which being careful popping them out then slowly guide the LV wires into the box to change a bad relay.

Common problems in trouble shooting is bad relay (on coil or off coil), using a voltage meter at the switch from the common to each button would tell you if the on or off coil was bad assuming wiring was good, as you should see 24 volts or close to it across each push button which is measuring through each coil back to the transformer, if both coils were good then the switch is bad, also some times the mechanical part of the relay would go bad and both coils would show good, but having a person by the relay to listen for the relay to switch would check this problem, bad HV contacts were rare, but if you had a relay that you could hear the switching then check across the HV contacts to see if the contacts are closing, this was only if the light didn't come on.

I have worked on many different type of installs on these the hardest ones was where they installed the relay into one light that controlled a few others if the relay stopped working it was a guess at which one had the relay, can lights were a pain when they put the relay in the junction box of a can light with a few other cans on it also, as you had to hunt for which one had the relay, of course if you had a nice installer they would leave you a map to the relays in the main breaker panel, but don't bet on it.

The system you have with the relay panels is the easiest to deal with, have your helper or homeowner push the on or off button (depending upon which is working) and you should hear a buzz from the relay, fairly easy to identify which relay goes to which button.

Parts are still available, and most supply houses that deal in GE stuff can get the relays or buttons, or you can get them from several sites online, just search for GE low voltage lighting control as in the link above which turned up many sites.

I have rebuilt many of these systems as it is in most cases cheaper to do then try to install wall switches to control the lights as in your case if fed all the way to the remote relay panel, my sisters house had the relays in the light box's but we still just replaced the bad relays as she like the convince of having the table top multi master controls in her bedroom and living room with the multi-master switch's at various locations through out the house such as the one in the kitchen that controlled the dinning room light, the hall, all the outside lights, which is one of the nice things, and the outside lights were controlled from many rooms, as well as from the garage, each bedroom and bathroom had two sets of switches one for the light in the room and one for the hall lights
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Thanks for the info Hurk. In every case these relay panels are packed with line voltage wires (both line and load - nothing is marked internally). Just opening the panel cover causes wire nuts to fall off. I'm hesitant to stick my fingers in there for fear that a wire nut might fall off. I'm sure the original contractor intended to do a quality job but whoever he sent out to actually do the work was a real hack. I was able to read the line voltage with my meter in most cases but was unable to read secondary voltage off the transformers inside the panel. Even the low voltage wiring outside the housings was strung loosly and looks like a rats nest. I don't plan on doing any additional work there until they make a committment to upgrade the system.

BTW, the relays only have 4 wires. 2 line voltage and 2 low voltage. I suspect the operation is merely a push on - push off type. Haven't even opened a switch plate to see how it is wired in the field.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thanks for the info Hurk. In every case these relay panels are packed with line voltage wires (both line and load - nothing is marked internally). Just opening the panel cover causes wire nuts to fall off. I'm hesitant to stick my fingers in there for fear that a wire nut might fall off. I'm sure the original contractor intended to do a quality job but whoever he sent out to actually do the work was a real hack. I was able to read the line voltage with my meter in most cases but was unable to read secondary voltage off the transformers inside the panel. Even the low voltage wiring outside the housings was strung loosly and looks like a rats nest. I don't plan on doing any additional work there until they make a committment to upgrade the system.

BTW, the relays only have 4 wires. 2 line voltage and 2 low voltage. I suspect the operation is merely a push on - push off type. Haven't even opened a switch plate to see how it is wired in the field.
Those style are often an "impulse" relay, meaning every time the control voltage is cycled the relay switches its state. Usually the control coil is not intended for continuous application of voltage so if a switch is sticking it will often burn out the relay coil.

If you have a light that will not shut off, you first need to find out if it is a control wiring issue or if the relay is not operating. Finding out which relay is the correct one is the first challenge- but if it is stuck in the on position it may be a little simpler - you may be lucky enough to just connect a circuit tracer to the light that won't shut off and hopefully trace a signal to the correct relay without too much trouble. From there you can bypass control wiring to verify whether you are looking for relay issue or control wiring issue or both if a stuck switch burned out the relay coil.
 
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