Arc-fault breaker on generator tranfer switch system

[jaylectricity]

I tried a few searches using the forum's search function and google and came up empty after 15 minutes or so.

I am wiring up a walk-in closet. I added a few lights, a ceiling fan and a receptacle to an existing bedroom closet. Since I was extending the circuit I brought an arc-fault breaker to replace the existing breaker.

When I get down to the panel I see that it's wired with a backup generator and a Reliance transfer switch (http://www.generatorfactoryoutlet.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/400x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/3/0/30408.jpg). I don't know for sure that it is wired properly because of the red and black leads, there were leads of both colors being fed from breakers. I'm pretty sure black in the line and red is the load.

At any rate, assuming that my particular circuit was wired properly, I could not get an arc-fault breaker to hold. Is this common? Is there a solution? Or is it obvious that the original wiring in not correct?

 

[GoldDigger]

I tried a few searches using the forum's search function and google and came up empty after 15 minutes or so.

I am wiring up a walk-in closet. I added a few lights, a ceiling fan and a receptacle to an existing bedroom closet. Since I was extending the circuit I brought an arc-fault breaker to replace the existing breaker.

When I get down to the panel I see that it's wired with a backup generator and a Reliance transfer switch (http://www.generatorfactoryoutlet.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/400x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/3/0/30408.jpg). I don't know for sure that it is wired properly because of the red and black leads, there were leads of both colors being fed from breakers. I'm pretty sure black in the line and red is the load.

At any rate, assuming that my particular circuit was wired properly, I could not get an arc-fault breaker to hold. Is this common? Is there a solution? Or is it obvious that the original wiring in not correct?

If the AFCI you are using is the kind that includes a GFCI function, it may be that when the transfer panel was wired up the neutral wires were interconnected or cross connected. That would cause an immediate trip on the GFCI whenever a load was turned on. The transfer panel could well be using both sides of the 120/240 and messing up existing MWBCs too.

 

[jaylectricity]

If the AFCI you are using is the kind that includes a GFCI function, it may be that when the transfer panel was wired up the neutral wires were interconnected or cross connected. That would cause an immediate trip on the GFCI whenever a load was turned on. The transfer panel could well be using both sides of the 120/240 and messing up existing MWBCs too.

GFCI function? The only time I've ever heard of that is when people confuse the term "combination" as AFCI/GFCI combination instead of its proper meaning of series/parallel combination.

But based on the fact that my question only got one reply I assume that nobody on this board knows anything about using arc-fault breakers with transfer switches.

Sad, I've always thought everybody was pretty smart on this forum. I guess it's been awhile since I've been here.

 

[hurk27]

GFCI function? The only time I've ever heard of that is when people confuse the term "combination" as AFCI/GFCI combination instead of its proper meaning of series/parallel combination.

But based on the fact that my question only got one reply I assume that nobody on this board knows anything about using arc-fault breakers with transfer switches.

Sad, I've always thought everybody was pretty smart on this forum. I guess it's been awhile since I've been here.

Slow down, most AFCI's have a GFP function that works like a GFCI, it is set at 30ma to 50ma on most arcfault breakers, if you have the neutral for the circuit being protected isolated and only connected to the neutral terminal on the AFCI all should be fine no matter what kind of a panel it is being fed from, but if the neutral from the circuit is landed to a neutral bar in the main panel or the transfer panel the GFP in the breaker will detect this as current flowing another path, both the hot and neutral must connect to the AFCI breaker, even then if there is some miss wiring where someone used this neutral for another circuit or if the neutral is part of a multi-wire circuit the AFCI will trip, many times I have had to combine the two hots together on multi-wire circuits to make it a single circuit because most AFCI's will not work on a multi-wire circuit unless you use a two pole AFCI breaker and all conductors of the multi-wire circuit lands on the breaker.

Basically the same problems we have with GFCI's will also happen with AFCI's that have the GFP sensor, if the neutral is grounded anywhere on the load side of the breaker or connected together with a neutral from another circuit in a box where two or more circuit may run to, will cause this problem, it's a very common mistake I have found over the years that some make.

If they ran the jumpers over from the main panel like many of these transfer panels comes with a already made up whip, you will need to trace the circuit in question and make sure the neutral for this circuit is isolated between the main panel and the transfer panel and only supplys the circuit on the AFCI, or move the circuit out of the main panel to the transfer panel so the neutral can directly land on the AFCI breaker, many of these panels did not supply a separate neutral for each circuit and would supply one to use between two circuits, or the installer would install in this way, but the neutral has to be isolated and not shared with any other circuit, if the wiring is in pipe then you most likely have a multi-wire circuit and if there is not allot of load on both sides of the circuit pig-tail then together and make one circuit out of them so both hots and the neutral can land on the AFCI, it's the only way other then pulling in a separate neutral for the circuit or installing a double pole AFCI.

As for the remark of no one having experience with AFCI's in a transfer panel, the problem has nothing to do with it being in a transfer panel, but it is a problem on how it may be wired which can happen in any panel, when dealing with old existing circuits.

Let us know what you find or post back on more details of the install, and we will be glad to help you

 

[ActionDave]

...I've always thought everybody was pretty smart on this forum. I guess it's been awhile since I've been here.

Nope. All that's left is a bunch that don't no much about much and it seems perrty pour 'cordin to most smrt peeples reconin'.

 

[Daja7]

Yep! we jes take all them new fangled thingies out and hook em up direct. don't need no stinkin edukatun. bsides there is always one smart guy to tell us.

 

[GoldDigger]

Yep! we jes take all them new fangled thingies out and hook em up direct. don't need no stinkin edukatun. bsides there is always one smart guy to tell us.

Them new fangled thingies are a royal pane. You ever try to get a penny to work with a circut braker? More trubble than its wurth!

 

[GoldDigger]

Sad, I've always thought everybody was pretty smart on this forum. I guess it's been awhile since I've been here.

If you just want to get it working and not worry about figuring out what is wrong with the wiring, look for a really new AFCI model that does not have GFP in it. That should hold just fine. (Just a SWAG, though, since I have never done that.)

 

[jaylectricity]

Haha, well, you guys still crack me up.

Anyway, I won't be going back there until they get the California Closet stuff installed so it might be a couple weeks. I'll let you know how it all works out.

 

[jumper]

Haha, well, you guys still crack me up.

Anyway, I won't be going back there until they get the California Closet stuff installed so it might be a couple weeks. I'll let you know how it all works out.

What is this?

 

[hurk27]

What is this?

If it is what I'm thinking its the built in organizer closet shelving system with plastic coated wire racks and shelves, some come with nice cabinets with drawers, places for your shoes and all.

Kind of like having custom kitchen cabinets in your closet, the wire racks are nifty unless they make the mistake of using the plastic clips as I found out when I put to much on the one in my master bedroom, as the plastic clips all broke and the whole thing came down in a pile, but I found the metal clips and put it all back up, then one at a time I been changing the clips in the other closets.

 

[jaylectricity]

So, finally the cabinets were installed, the paddle fan arrived, etc.

I hooked up the circuit directly to the arc-fault and it held. Then I hooked it up through the transfer switch.

It held.

I have no idea what the problem was. The black and white conductors were the same ones I tried before.

Oh well. It works.

Oh, the other thing was there was a "grommet" for a receptacle in the plans. I left a wire there, but had no idea what to expect. The "grommet" was exactly the size of a midway plate. Unfortunately there was a stud right where the grommet was. So much for planning.

I just drilled down the stud and used a metal old-work box...shoehorned the recep and plate into the spot. I don't like it, but it looks good and feels secure, so I'm not going to worry about it.

 

[sparkyrick]

A ceiling fan in a closet? Really!

 

[jaylectricity]

It's a big closet! Also, it was hot as heck in there. I couldn't get it up fast enough to cool the room down so I could deal with the other issues.

 

[Little Bill]

A ceiling fan in a closet? Really!

That was going to be my question!
That ain't no closet, it's a clothes/shoe room!

 

[jaylectricity]

Yeah...the shoe collection was quite extensive. And I have a feeling the closet wasn't fully stocked yet.

Most of the shoes were high-heel boots. Most of the clothes were button-up collared shirts and dress pants.

 

[jaylectricity]

Funny thing...there was another GC there doing a finished basement. I met him the first day I was there and he said he turned down the closet job because of the extra framing that was probably going to be needed to support the closet extension over the driveway.

So we had two separate permits going on at the same house at the same time.

I'm just glad the arc-fault held so I can close out my permit with no problem. I would hate to have a problem with the inspector while he was inspecting two different electricians on the job.