Arc Fault requirements in Ohio

[haultj]

I am currently wiring a sunroom with a hot tub in it. The inspector came out and informed me that all circuits in the room need to be both arc fault and ground fault. He is including the switches that control lights in cans in the ceiling, ceiling fan and an exhaust fan mounted inside the attic of the room. From my reading of the latest code, I should only need to use arc fault breakers on the circuits that are powering the recepticals in the room but he was adamant about protecting everything including the 60A double pole circuit for the hot tub. I cannot find any arc fault breakers above 20A. Do I really need to have arc fault on the ceiling mounted lights and fans? Do I need to find a 60A double pole arc fault for the hot tub?

Any help would be appreciated. I am pulling what little hair that I have left out just thinking about this.

Oh yea . . . one more crazy question. What is a combination breaker since it is not arc fault and ground fault?

Thank you.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Since 2002? the NEC has required outlets in certain areas to be afci. The problem is that many people think of receptacles as outlets and not lights. Read the definition of outlet and you will see that lights, smoke detectors , fans etc would be included in this.

 

[GoldDigger]

Oh yea . . . one more crazy question. What is a combination breaker since it is not arc fault and ground fault?

Series and parallel arc fault.
The parallel arc fault detection, with or without GFCI, is the standard Branch Circuit breaker, and the combination adds in series arc detection capability, usually at a much higher current level.

 

[haultj]

What about that 60A circuit?

What about that 60A circuit?

Am I correct in the assumption that I either misunderstood the inspector or he is crazy to say that arc fault is required on that circuit?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Am I correct in the assumption that I either misunderstood the inspector or he is crazy to say that arc fault is required on that circuit?

afci is required on the circuit

 

[suemarkp]

On a 60A circuit? I thought the requirement was 15A and 20A circuits only. Never seen an AFCI over 20A.

But the hot tub needs a GFCI. Also, only the receptacle outlets are required to be GFCI unless you have light above the tub a certain distance.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am confused now that I re-read this. What do you mean by an attic above the tub. Is this really a Hot tub or a hydromassage tub? Is this a bathroom?

AFCI is not needed in bath areas but we need clarity as to where this tub is and what it is.

 

[kwired]

OP says this is a "sunroom" If the tub in question is supplied by a 60 amp circuit it is likely a spa and not a hydromassage tub. But this is really all speculation. If it is a bathroom only GFCI requirements are 15 and 20 amp 125 volt receptacle outlets. If it is a spa- there may be GFCI requirements for other items within vicinity of the tub but not necessarily for the entire room.


AFCI has never been required for anything outside of 15 and 20 amp 125 volt circuits - so far.

AFCI as well as GFCI should not be required for an attic fan, a fan that penetrates the wall or ceiling in the room in question is possibly debatable - all comes down to determining the location of the "outlet", and would have to be part of a 15 or 20 amp 125 volt circuit otherwise the AFCI requirement is disqualified.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Series and parallel arc fault.
The parallel arc fault detection, with or without GFCI, is the standard Branch Circuit breaker, and the combination adds in series arc detection capability, usually at a much higher current level.

The the original branch circuit/feeder type (parallel arc detection) did not look at the arc signature unless the circuit current was 75 amps or more.

The series detection in the combination type AFCI looks for a series arc if the current is 5 amps or more.

I don't know what current level has to be before the parallel arc detection part of a combination device looks for the parallel arc signature.

 

[GoldDigger]

The the original branch circuit/feeder type (parallel arc detection) did not look at the arc signature unless the circuit current was 75 amps or more.

The series detection in the combination type AFCI looks for a series arc if the current is 5 amps or more.

I don't know what current level has to be before the parallel arc detection part of a combination device looks for the parallel arc signature.

And yet, as seen in many you-tube videos, both parallel and serial arc faults at lower currents can still start fires. Fortunately the technology is still evolving.
I have seen a combination AFCI including GFCI whose spec stated that both line to neutral and line to ground parallel arc faults on the order of 30ma would be detected. But that is a newer model or may have been a mistake.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I have not been convinced that a series arc can even exist at dwelling unit voltages.

 

[Volta]

I have not been convinced that a series arc can even exist at dwelling unit voltages.

How is that, wouldn't you consider the arc seen when simply disconnecting a plug from receptacle as a series arc?

 

[GoldDigger]

I have not been convinced that a series arc can even exist at dwelling unit voltages.

A good point in the sense that neither an intermittent sparking caused by a loose connection nor the famous "glowing connection" is a series (or any other kind) arc in the strict sense of the word, which may explain why AFCIs generally do not detect them.

 

[kwired]

How is that, wouldn't you consider the arc seen when simply disconnecting a plug from receptacle as a series arc?

That would be a series arc. But dwelling voltages are not high enough to sustain such an arc is what I think he is getting at. You may have similar arc every time you open a switch, circuit breaker, etc.

 

[GoldDigger]

That would be a series arc. But dwelling voltages are not high enough to sustain such an arc is what I think he is getting at. You may have similar arc every time you open a switch, circuit breaker, etc.

Theoretically an arc which extinguishes during the zero crossing can re-strike later in the cycle if the two surfaces are close enough. As possibly inside a loose wire nut or in the case of a switch closing with damaged contacts. That could lead to a persisting series arc that could ignite something eventually.

 

[kwired]

Theoretically an arc which extinguishes during the zero crossing can re-strike later in the cycle if the two surfaces are close enough. As possibly inside a loose wire nut or in the case of a switch closing with damaged contacts. That could lead to a persisting series arc that could ignite something eventually.

How small does any gap need to be to stop calling it an arc and start calling it a high resistance connection?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Theoretically an arc which extinguishes during the zero crossing can re-strike later in the cycle if the two surfaces are close enough. As possibly inside a loose wire nut or in the case of a switch closing with damaged contacts. That could lead to a persisting series arc that could ignite something eventually.

My understanding is that re-strike does not occur at dwelling unit voltages.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

How is that, wouldn't you consider the arc seen when simply disconnecting a plug from receptacle as a series arc?

You are correct, I should have said "sustaining series arc".

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I haven't read anything that says sustaining parallel arcs are not possible at dwelling unit voltags, but isn't the physics the same for both series and parallel arcs? How is it that a parallel arc is possible and a series arc is not....maybe neither is really possible.

 

[kwired]

How is it that a parallel arc is possible and a series arc is not....maybe neither is really possible.

That would mean the promoters of AFCI are just as much of a snake oil salesman as those that sell the little black box power savers:happyyes: