3-way traveler color coding

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Dan527

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Hi, this is my first post here. Your forums have been incredibly useful to me in the past and I am proud to finally ask a question.

Getting to the point, I had some questions about a set of three 3-way switches that I was recently surveying. One set of controls for these circuits is outdoors, with individual 12 AWG THWN conductors traveling through NM conduit. The unswitched hot to the 3 switches is black, but each switch has a pair of identical-color travelers coming from it (2 red, 2 blue, and 2 black-marked whites). I haven't been able to find anything in the NEC regarding the coloring of pairs of switched hots (and honestly I did forget :happysad: ). Is it okay to have both travelers from a single switch be the same color? Thanks.
 
Dan527 said:
Hi, this is my first post here. Your forums have been incredibly useful to me in the past and I am proud to finally ask a question.

Getting to the point, I had some questions about a set of three 3-way switches that I was recently surveying. One set of controls for these circuits is outdoors, with individual 12 AWG THWN conductors traveling through NM conduit. The unswitched hot to the 3 switches is black, but each switch has a pair of identical-color travelers coming from it (2 red, 2 blue, and 2 black-marked whites). I haven't been able to find anything in the NEC regarding the coloring of pairs of switched hots (and honestly I did forget :happysad: ). Is it okay to have both travelers from a single switch be the same color? Thanks.
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With the exception of white and green they can be any color.

Welcome to the forum...:)
 
Dan527 said:
Hi, this is my first post here. Your forums have been incredibly useful to me in the past and I am proud to finally ask a question.

Getting to the point, I had some questions about a set of three 3-way switches that I was recently surveying. One set of controls for these circuits is outdoors, with individual 12 AWG THWN conductors traveling through NM conduit. The unswitched hot to the 3 switches is black, but each switch has a pair of identical-color travelers coming from it (2 red, 2 blue, and 2 black-marked whites). I haven't been able to find anything in the NEC regarding the coloring of pairs of switched hots (and honestly I did forget :happysad: ). Is it okay to have both travelers from a single switch be the same color? Thanks.
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I do it that way all the time. Makes for easy identification of what goes to what. Switch A has pink travelers, Switch B has purple travelers.
I do similar with line and load when the occasion fits.
 
Dan527 said:
Hi, this is my first post here. Your forums have been incredibly useful to me in the past and I am proud to finally ask a question.





Getting to the point, I had some questions about a set of three 3-way switches that I was recently surveying. One set of controls for these circuits is outdoors, with individual 12 AWG THWN conductors traveling through NM conduit. The unswitched hot to the 3 switches is black, but each switch has a pair of identical-color travelers coming from it (2 red, 2 blue, and 2 black-marked whites). I haven't been able to find anything in the NEC regarding the coloring of pairs of switched hots (and honestly I did forget :happysad: ). Is it okay to have both travelers from a single switch be the same color? Thanks.
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For 2011
200.7 This will help with your situation somewhat.

(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) and (2). (1)
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If part of a cable assembly that has the insulation permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor by marking tape, painting, or other effective means at its termination and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green. If used for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops, the reidentified conductor with white or gray insulation or three continuous white stripes shall be used only for the supply to the switch, but not as a return conductor from the switch to the outlet.

For 2008 "existing"
(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3). (1)
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If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green.


(2)
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Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.
 
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Gregg Harris said:
(2)
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Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.
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Which, if I am interpreting it correctly, effectively prohibits using one length of NM-2 w/g for a set of travelers. You would have to use two lengths or one length of NM-3 w/g instead.
 
GoldDigger said:
Which, if I am interpreting it correctly, effectively prohibits using one length of NM-2 w/g for a set of travelers. You would have to use two lengths or one length of NM-3 w/g instead.
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Would all conductors be of the same circuit?
 
GoldDigger said:
Yes. Two traveler wires running from switch to switch to implement a two-switch, three-way, control function. Or the corresponding switch-to-switch wires for any four-way (DPDT reversing) switches added.
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Now throw in the requirement for a grounded conductor at most switch locations.
 
GoldDigger said:
Which, if I am interpreting it correctly, effectively prohibits using one length of NM-2 w/g for a set of travelers. You would have to use two lengths or one length of NM-3 w/g instead.
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GoldDigger said:
Well, that at least gives you a good use for the white wire that you cannot re-identify and use for something else. :)
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Travelers only exist from switch to switch. The prohibition of re-identification of "the identified conductor" in cables is only "as the return conductor from the switch to the outlet."
 
al hildenbrand said:
Travelers only exist from switch to switch. The prohibition of re-identification of "the identified conductor" in cables is only "as the return conductor from the switch to the outlet."
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So, if you have exactly two switches, one switch will have a supply and two travelers and the other switch will have two travelers and a return?
I interpreted the travelers as being part of the return circuit to the outlet and therefore both travelers would be returns. But that should have had "a return conductor" instead of "the return conductor".
I can see the potential for problems if the identification comes off the conductor at the outlet end and somebody tries to use it to feed the neutral terminal of a load.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Travelers only exist from switch to switch. The prohibition of re-identification of "the identified conductor" in cables is only "as the return conductor from the switch to the outlet."
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Correct, I have been to many IAEI meetings across the country and this question can up quit a bit, and the response from the code making panel members was always that the travelers can be white and black as long as the white is re-identified, as the intent was and has always been to keep from having two white conductors at a light or switched receptacle outlet, does not apply to the switches.

the code allows a white to be used to the first 3-way as a hot, then as the travelers between the 3-ways, but from the second 3-way to the outlet (light or receptacle) it must be a colored wire, also this rule only applies to cable wiring methods not conduit as conductors under #6 can not be re-identified if a raceway is used. see 200.6 and 200.7
 
Now, if one were to understand that an outlet occurs at a switch used as a controller . . . . :angel:
 
al hildenbrand said:
Now, if one were to understand that an outlet occurs at a switch used as a controller . . . . :angel:
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A switch is utilization equipment because it controls power to something that uses it?

[additional text inserted is mine]
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken [from the wiring system] to supply utilization equipment.
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Utilization Equipment. Equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes.
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So, if the switch just modifies power that does not leave the wiring system until somewhere down the line, the switch location would not be an outlet, yes?
 
GoldDigger said:
A switch is utilization equipment because it controls power to something that uses it?

So, if the switch just modifies power that does not leave the wiring system until somewhere down the line, the switch location would not be an outlet, yes?
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Consider also Article 100 Definitions of Controller, Premises Wiring (System), and 404.14.

Remember, the definition of Outlet is only involving current, not power.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Now, if one were to understand that an outlet occurs at a switch used as a controller . . . . :angel:
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Then I would say someone is really twisting the common meaning of an outlet.

If we look at a water pipe with a valve we can clearly see that end of the pipe is really the outlet where the water leaves the system whether its into a hose or bathtub, but at the valve it just controls the water flow, of course it could be at the end of the valve itself but the valve would only control but not use the water.

Now if we apply this to a wiring system, we should be able to see that an outlet is where the electrons leave the system to feed a load and a switch only controls the electron flow.
 
hurk27 said:
If we look at a water pipe with a valve we can clearly see that end of the pipe is really the outlet where the water leaves the system . . .
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And we are told that the internal mechanism of the valve is NOT part of the piping system (Premises Wiring System), therefore the water has to leave the piping system to pass through the valve. The only reason the water is passing through the valve is because it is being "taken" by utilization equipment, just not utilization equipment in that valve body.

The water is "taken" from the piping system to pass through the valve which is defined as not piping system . . .

Just saying . . .

It's in the last sentence of Premises Wiring (System). A switch controlling utilization equipment has current passing through its internal wiring, and that internal wiring of the switch is not part of the Premises Wiring (System) because it is a Controller. . . the current passing into the switch (out of the wiring system) is taken by the utilization equipment.
Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Click to expand...
 
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al hildenbrand said:
It's in the last sentence of Premises Wiring (System). A switch controlling utilization equipment has current passing through its internal wiring, and that internal wiring of the switch is not part of the Premises Wiring (System) because it is a Controller. . . the current passing into the switch (out of the wiring system) is taken by the utilization equipment.
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Fascinating. Allow me to throw in some more conundrums.

If the current passes out of the wiring system into a Controller, but is then returned by the Controller to the wiring system rather than being fed directly to the Utilization Equipment (UE), has it still left the system? Or has the switch indeed become part of the wiring system rather than a Controller?
We now have the possibly troublesome situation of one outlet feeding another outlet. (Not just wiring being carried through the box which contains the outlet to another box which contains another outlet, without ever leaving the wiring system, which should not cause any concern.)
Or do we instead say that all of the wiring, conduit, etc. past the switch is no longer part of the wiring system, since the current has already left the wiring system?

I predict we will have a lot of fun with this one. (If you consider headaches fun, of course....)
 
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