Code question: Tapping off the supply side of a main disconnect to supply panel

[senoirbubbles]

I have code questions. I have a job whereby somebody double tapped the lugs of the load side of a 100 amp main service disconnect to feed a 30 amp sub-panel that feeds a small window ac. I would like to redo this and make it correct. My solution to fix this without replacing meter cans,disconnects and making it a huge job is this: I would like to tap into the load side of the#4 wire using #4 with a split bolt or a polaris and run a small sub panel underneath the main disco. The sub-panel would then feed the a/c. Or, I would like to tap into the feeder from the meter to the main disconnect with split bolt or a polaris with #4 wire and feed a sub panel underneath the main disconnect. I would have to do a load calculation to make sure sure the new load added to the existing load doesnt exceed to the meter can amperage.

Please find pictures attached

 

[iwire]

Looking at the condition of the equipment I think the double tapped lugs are the least of the problems there.

The lack of bonding and heavy rust on the nipple strikes me as a bigger danger.

 

[kwired]

I have code questions. I have a job whereby somebody double tapped the lugs of the load side of a 100 amp main service disconnect to feed a 30 amp sub-panel that feeds a small window ac. I would like to redo this and make it correct. My solution to fix this without replacing meter cans,disconnects and making it a huge job is this: I would like to tap into the load side of the#4 wire using #4 with a split bolt or a polaris and run a small sub panel underneath the main disco. The sub-panel would then feed the a/c. Or, I would like to tap into the feeder from the meter to the main disconnect with split bolt or a polaris with #4 wire and feed a sub panel underneath the main disconnect. I would have to do a load calculation to make sure sure the new load added to the existing load doesnt exceed to the meter can amperage.

Please find pictures attached View attachment 9033 View attachment 9034

Once you make that tap, the 4 AWG conductor it is no longer serving the "entire dwelling" and can not use 310.15(B)(7) for determining ampacity, it will need increased to 3 AWG if the overcurrent device is 100 amps.

 

[kwired]

Looking at the condition of the equipment I think the double tapped lugs are the least of the problems there.

The lack of bonding and heavy rust on the nipple strikes me as a bigger danger.

How can you tell what bonding was done from that picture? It does appear likely there is no GEC, but we really can't tell that for certain either.

How much rust must be on the nipple before it is condemned? Looks fairly normal to me for its likely age, and the rust we see is likely just a little surface rust at this time.

I can show you much worse rust or other corrosion problems by taking you to a hog barn, or fertilizer plant, or even around grain storage bins where it is not considered highly corrosive like the others mentioned. I'm sure the owners will go for total replacement of equipment every year or two with just a little surface rust.

 

[iwire]

I can show you much worse rust or other corrosion problems by taking you to a hog barn, or fertilizer plant, or even around grain storage bins where it is not considered highly corrosive like the others mentioned.

Fabulous, I have never seen rusted equipment before. :roll:

 

[senoirbubbles]

How can you tell what bonding was done from that picture? It does appear likely there is no GEC, but we really can't tell that for certain either.

How much rust must be on the nipple before it is condemned? Looks fairly normal to me for its likely age, and the rust we see is likely just a little surface rust at this time.

I can show you much worse rust or other corrosion problems by taking you to a hog barn, or fertilizer plant, or even around grain storage bins where it is not considered highly corrosive like the others mentioned. I'm sure the owners will go for total replacement of equipment every year or two with just a little surface rust.

It is true it mostly surface rust. It is near the water in Florida so it's actually in decent condition. The bond is in the upper right corner it's is a lug bonded to the panel. It feeds a fused panel in a closet on the other side of he house. It is an old two wire system with no ground

Sounds like I need to come up with another plan

 

[kwired]

Fabulous, I have never seen rusted equipment before. :roll:

Without removing the covers, and for no more than what I see in that photo, I certainly don't call that rusted to a point that it is in desperate need of replacement.

I bet I can find you a rusty panel or two in types of places I mentioned that you can literally grab and squeeze hard enough to crush it or for your fingers to break through the wall, or something of that nature. I am not saying I am proud of them - but they are there, I can't just change them either unless I want to do it for free, need to convince owners it needs done if I want to be paid. Some guys just don't get it when something has been there for a long time and caused no problem yet why it should be replaced if it still is working.

 

[iwire]

It is true it mostly surface rust. It is near the water in Florida so it's actually in decent condition. The bond is in the upper right corner it's is a lug bonded to the panel. It feeds a fused panel in a closet on the other side of he house. It is an old two wire system with no ground

Sounds like I need to come up with another plan

The bonding I was asking about was for for the nipple between the meter and the service disconnect.

 

[iwire]

Without removing the covers, and for no more than what I see in that photo, I certainly don't call that rusted to a point that it is in desperate need of replacement.

And yet I still rate the condition of the equipment as a bigger issue than the double tapped lugs.

That is called my opinion, you are free to disagree with it but you will not change it.

I bet I can find you a rusty panel or two in types of places I mentioned that you can literally grab and squeeze hard enough to crush it or for your fingers to break through the wall, or something of that nature.

And yet my opinion remains that the double tap in the OPs picture is less of an issue than the old rusty Frank Adams fused pull out.

I understand you have a different opinion.