Outside PIV issues

[WiscElectrician]

Hello all, I have been reading Q @ A's for years and definitely added to my knowlege base from some of the answers. I have been working on an ongoing issue for months now and figured going to the broad knowledge base here was a much needed step. I will try my best to explain the entire issue in this post but any additional questions would be appreciated and answered quickly....

The biggest of our warehouses is a little over 1,000,000 ft^2, around the exterior of the building are about 15 remote PIV units. On the interior of the building the IDC circuit goes to a single or duel mod, then to a surge protector, out + or- 150ft to the PIV which has a module that we hook to the normally open contacts with a 47K resistor, which is then obviously hooked to a micro switch inside the PIV.

The issue is we go into supervisory for these PIV's every week, so far as I have about 5 of them shortened to eliminate the piv module. The microswitch is definitely open, but is still sending the system spontaneously into alarm. Now we've replaced the modules inside the PIV's thinking maybe the damp conditions, and the microswitches even though Ahern and I said they were fine.

My first question is does somebody think moving the suppressors from the load side of the mod going outside to the line side of the mod could possibly solve the issue? or is this wishful thinking. I understand this would no longer protect the mod from lightning strikes or surges, but replacing a few modules is much cheaper than continuing to troubleshoot these alarms.

Or.. Changing the module to a normally closed state and monitoring the PIV's that way? I understand if there is a short between the wires I would not get a trouble alarm, but we do quarterly checks on the PIV's. I am assuming I would have to check with the insurance company and local codes first, but this issue just doesn't seem to go away. Has anyone else had an issue like this? or any ideas on a possible reason for this would be appreciated. Thanks for any help, sorry for the long first question.

Brandon

 

[gadfly56]

Hello all, I have been reading Q @ A's for years and definitely added to my knowlege base from some of the answers. I have been working on an ongoing issue for months now and figured going to the broad knowledge base here was a much needed step. I will try my best to explain the entire issue in this post but any additional questions would be appreciated and answered quickly....

The biggest of our warehouses is a little over 1,000,000 ft^2, around the exterior of the building are about 15 remote PIV units. On the interior of the building the IDC circuit goes to a single or duel mod, then to a surge protector, out + or- 150ft to the PIV which has a module that we hook to the normally open contacts with a 47K resistor, which is then obviously hooked to a micro switch inside the PIV.

The issue is we go into supervisory for these PIV's every week, so far as I have about 5 of them shortened to eliminate the piv module. The microswitch is definitely open, but is still sending the system spontaneously into alarm. Now we've replaced the modules inside the PIV's thinking maybe the damp conditions, and the microswitches even though Ahern and I said they were fine.

My first question is does somebody think moving the suppressors from the load side of the mod going outside to the line side of the mod could possibly solve the issue? or is this wishful thinking. I understand this would no longer protect the mod from lightning strikes or surges, but replacing a few modules is much cheaper than continuing to troubleshoot these alarms.

Or.. Changing the module to a normally closed state and monitoring the PIV's that way? I understand if there is a short between the wires I would not get a trouble alarm, but we do quarterly checks on the PIV's. I am assuming I would have to check with the insurance company and local codes first, but this issue just doesn't seem to go away. Has anyone else had an issue like this? or any ideas on a possible reason for this would be appreciated. Thanks for any help, sorry for the long first question.

Brandon

Welcome to the forum!

You mention the IDC and monitor module; did you mean SLC? IDC's are the term used for conventional panel zone circuits.

First up is to move the monitor modules (assuming this IS an addressable system?) back inside the building. High humidity and extreme temperatures are not your friend for fire alarm modules. Wait till winter sets in!! Almost all modules from any manufacturer will easily handle 150 feet, +/-. Are you using the Space Age Electronics suppression modules?

BTW, I assume your handle means you're up Wisconsin way. I just got back from 2 weeks in the Dells. You have a pretty state.

 

[WiscElectrician]

Hi again, thanks for the response. I'll try to explain it better, I've gotten a little bit used to talking with the director who doesn't really understand all the fire alarm "terms". Although I wouldn't call myself a firealarm expert by any means.

The SLC circuit goes to a flow switch addressable module inside the building, from there it goes to a Dytek DTK-2MHLP module about 6" away from the module, and then out to a "weatherproof" microswitch enclosure mounted to the PIV. We wire it to the normally open contacts with a 47K resistor between which working properly gives us our normal state. We also have liquid taped the termination screws to try and eliminate any moisture between the contacts.

What I was thinking of doing was wiring the microswitch through the normally closed contacts and installing the resistor in the building in series. I understand this would basically get rid of the supervisory state, but when the PIV's are opened it would still give me an open trouble call. Opinion?

Thanks again

 

[WiscElectrician]

And yes from the south east part of Wisconsin, during the spring and fall Wisconsin is definitely beautiful. I could do without the winters though.

 

[jewellfish]

When you meter the wiring from the module to the EOLR what do you get on the bad devices? What kind of wire do you have between the module and the PIV? Is it underground rated? If not water in the pipe can cause issues. With a 47K EOLR I am assuming this is a Fire-Lite or Notifier Panel. You will want to seal the pipe coming from the underground with duct seal as temperature differences and water in the pipe can cause condensation in the PIV switch.

Where at in Kenosha. I used to live on 76th.

 

[nhfire77]

Since you've tried a few things, let me ask a few questions to address a few items you haven't mentioned:

Are you getting a ground fault? I assume you checked the complete panel history... But had to ask. (If a GF is concurrent with the supv. Alarm, bingo!)

Is the ditek module solidly grounded?

When the PIV is turned towards closed, how many revolutions does it take for the switch to change state? (if less than 1/4 turn, may be a cause)

Have you tried to turn the switch body in the PIV threaded opening? (if loose and spun even a little, alarms may occur)

Age of the PIV?

Is it physicallly locked open?

How long does it stay in alarm before a restore is logged?

As previously mentioned, is the cable rated for wet/direct burial?

Have you performed a hard reset on this panel recently? (assuming its a Firelite, they can get 'ghosts' in them lock up, though is normally a lack repsonse or fail to dial is the issue. Unlikely a fix, but worth doing every once in a while)

 

[nhfire77]

One diagnostic idea: wire it NC for a week or two. if you start getting troubles, the wiring can all but be eliminated as a source of the issue.

Also, ensure ground fault detection is enabled and, just for fun, make sure there isn't a GF on both legs just above the detection threshold. If so, intermittent water infiltration could be an issue.

 

[WiscElectrician]

Thanks for the replies,

It is a Notifier panel, all the wiring is done in THHN from the interior module through the Ditek surge suppressor and out to the microswitch at the PIV. There aren't any ground faults in the wire ( it was just replaced last year ), and I do read around 47K when I completely disconnect the microswitch and wire through the resistor.

At that point I assumed it has to be the microswitch which trips nearly immediately on the turn, a quarter turn is probably generous. Unfortunately when I read the switch it says it's ok, but usually these supervisory's stay for a few hours and go away. We don't install the microswitch so changing the tolerance on it might get tricky. What we were thinking was maybe going more to a whisker switch, if that's even possible.

Depending on where on 76th Street your talking I don't live far away. I'm right off of 60th Street.

 

[dhalleron]

It wouldn't be code compliant to use the normally closed configuration permanently. You might try it as part of troubleshooting.

You said the surge suppressor is about 6" away from your monitor module. Make sure the grounding path is shorter than the distance of the wiring to your monitor module. Check Ditek's install sheet for details.

I agree with nhfire77 on checking to see if switch is loose and you need the valve to turn some before tripping. If it is too close to tripping, then a truck driving by might cause it to trip.

 

[nhfire77]

Thanks for the replies,

It is a Notifier panel, all the wiring is done in THHN from the interior module through the Ditek surge suppressor and out to the microswitch at the PIV. There aren't any ground faults in the wire ( it was just replaced last year ), and I do read around 47K when I completely disconnect the microswitch and wire through the resistor.

At that point I assumed it has to be the microswitch which trips nearly immediately on the turn, a quarter turn is probably generous. Unfortunately when I read the switch it says it's ok, but usually these supervisory's stay for a few hours and go away. We don't install the microswitch so changing the tolerance on it might get tricky. What we were thinking was maybe going more to a whisker switch, if that's even possible.

Depending on where on 76th Street your talking I don't live far away. I'm right off of 60th Street.

I'm not a sprinkler guy, or a plumber, and neither are you. Having said that, adjusting one isn't too hard, if it isn't badly rusted. Sometimes turning it a 1/4 turn will aleviate the issue. If, you are bold enough to play around, I bet its this one: http:/http://www.pottersignal.com/Sprinkler/pdf/5400980_PCVS.pdf/ If not, understandable, get the sprinkler guys out there.

Also, it is locked right? To keep hands off it, that is.

Technically pad locking is acceptable in place of supervision. I think its a bad idea, and I think so does FM but NFPA 13 is ok with it.

 

[tjohnston99]

RE: Outside PIV issues

The switch should be adjusted so that it activates within 2 complete turns of the valve. We typically shoot for 1-1.5 turns. Anything less than a complete turn is asking for possible vibration issues and intermittent tripping. The first 1/8 to 1/2 turns of some valves, is nothing more than thread slack. You may also try a plug-style tamper switch to see if the "ghost-supervisories" go away. A typical example would be the Viking PTSC tamper switch. Also, we have noted that anything other than "Aquaseal" type wires tend to have moisture related triggering issues over time. Hope this helps.

Tj Johnston
VSC Fire & Security