GFI Receptacle Failed Inspection

[jap]

A friend of mine installed a GFI Receptacle on a 2 wire circuit and labeled it "No Ground".
The inspector failed it because it would not trip his Plug In Ground Fault Tester.
The tester would not trip the Ground Fault Receptacle if a ground was not attached.
Have any of you run into this before?


JAP.

 

[kwired]

A friend of mine installed a GFI Receptacle on a 2 wire circuit and labeled it "No Ground".
The inspector failed it because it would not trip his Plug In Ground Fault Tester.
The tester would not trip the Ground Fault Receptacle if a ground was not attached.
Have any of you run into this before?


JAP.

That is exactly what should happen if there is no ground. Inspector needs some educating, if there is no path for current flow there is no fault current to cause a trip, if he would introduce test current to an actual grounded object it will still trip the device, and this is the reason why GFCI is permitted in some instances where there is no available equipment grounding conductor. Yes having an EGC would be nice and would be code compliant for new work, but this exception is only for dealing with existing installs that have no EGC.

BTW the GFCI manufacturers only instructions for testing are to use the test button on the device.

 

[Volta]

Yup. The protection is not compromised though. The inspector simply did not test it properly. He or she could have used the test button on the device. Or if they wanted, could have used a grounding adapter and bonded the loop to an available egc and used the portable GFCI "tester" that way.

 

[480sparky]

The inspector needs educated. Plug-in testers are not listed for proper testing of GFCIs. The ---only--- accepted method is the built-in test button.

 

[templdl]

The inspector needs educated. Plug-in testers are not listed for proper testing of GFCIs. The ---only--- accepted method is the built-in test button.

I checked the instructions which did state say that the test button on a GFCI outlet applied a test current between the hot and neutral which the tester is not capable of doing which confirms what you have stated.

 

[GoldDigger]

I checked the instructions which did state say that the test button on a GFCI outlet applied a test current between the hot and neutral which the tester is not capable of doing which confirms what you have stated.

More specifically, it applies a current between the hot on one side of the current sensing coil and the neutral on the other side of that coil. Nothing which has access only to the load side of the device can do that.

 

[goldstar]

I've found that most plug-in GFI testers will not trip the GFI receptacle if there is no ground available. The lights on the tester will indicate that there is no ground present. I'm not sure but I believe the test button on the plug-in tester shorts the ground to the neutral causing the receptacle to trip. When you have cases where K & T are present you're supposed to use GFI receptacles or breakers and mark them as you did.

 

[kwired]

I've found that most plug-in GFI testers will not trip the GFI receptacle if there is no ground available. The lights on the tester will indicate that there is no ground present. I'm not sure but I believe the test button on the plug-in tester shorts the ground to the neutral causing the receptacle to trip. When you have cases where K & T are present you're supposed to use GFI receptacles or breakers and mark them as you did.

You are on the right track. If the voltage is 120 volts and the device is supposed to trip @ 4-6 mA of fault current, that means they put no higher than a 30K resistor between the hot and ground. (120 / .004 = 30,000) They don't put a "short" between the two, but rather a test load in the range of what the device is supposed to respond to.

One thing that I have heard of that you need to watch for when there is no EGC, and the best part of this is when an electrical inspector is the one telling the story of what happened to him at one time. He encountered an outdoor GFCI receptacle one time and his tester showed no equipment ground. He then pressed the test button on his tester and got a pretty good jolt from the metal weatherproof cover. That is because that tester is trying to put a test current on the non existing EGC and therefore the cover became 120 volts to ground and standing outside is generally much more conductive than inside on a wood or other non conductive floor. So when you see there is no EGC you really need to think about what you may energize before you press the test button.

 

[K8MHZ]

You are on the right track. If the voltage is 120 volts and the device is supposed to trip @ 4-6 mA of fault current, that means they put no higher than a 30K resistor between the hot and ground. (120 / .004 = 30,000) They don't put a "short" between the two, but rather a test load in the range of what the device is supposed to respond to.

One thing that I have heard of that you need to watch for when there is no EGC, and the best part of this is when an electrical inspector is the one telling the story of what happened to him at one time. He encountered an outdoor GFCI receptacle one time and his tester showed no equipment ground. He then pressed the test button on his tester and got a pretty good jolt from the metal weatherproof cover. That is because that tester is trying to put a test current on the non existing EGC and therefore the cover became 120 volts to ground and standing outside is generally much more conductive than inside on a wood or other non conductive floor. So when you see there is no EGC you really need to think about what you may energize before you press the test button.

One should also be aware that one of those plug in testers may trip a GFCI receptacle that may be nearly impossible to find.

What do you do if you push the button on a standard bathroom receptacle to see if it is GFCI protected and the power goes out? Start hunting for the tripped GFCI, right?

I have found them tripped hidden behind a shelf in a garage, a post in the garden overgrown with vines and on the ceiling in a basement.

The one in the garage had been tripped for a couple years. The one on the post had been out for weeks and took me hours to find. The one in the basement was easy, it was right next to the fuse box....but it was protecting a bathroom receptacle on the second floor.

 

[goldstar]

The one in the basement was easy, it was right next to the fuse box....but it was protecting a bathroom receptacle on the second floor.

I have a buddy of mine that installs GFI's that way. Kind of chincy on a 1 million $$ house but it's legit. Puts the GFI in the 1st fl powder room and daisy chains the rest off that.:rant:

 

[suemarkp]

One thing that I have heard of that you need to watch for when there is no EGC, and the best part of this is when an electrical inspector is the one telling the story of what happened to him at one time. He encountered an outdoor GFCI receptacle one time and his tester showed no equipment ground. He then pressed the test button on his tester and got a pretty good jolt from the metal weatherproof cover. That is because that tester is trying to put a test current on the non existing EGC and therefore the cover became 120 volts to ground and standing outside is generally much more conductive than inside on a wood or other non conductive floor. So when you see there is no EGC you really need to think about what you may energize before you press the test button.

I would think this leakage through the inspector would also be enough to trip the GFCI. So that may be a good way to educate them that the GFCI does in fact work and perhaps get them to think about how/why it works. But they'd probably turn around and fail you for the metal cover plate... Be a good solution though if this happens again -- keep an extra metal cover around and have him put his other hand on some metal plumbing while you press the test button for him.

 

[GoldDigger]

I would think this leakage through the inspector would also be enough to trip the GFCI. So that may be a good way to educate them that the GFCI does in fact work and perhaps get them to think about how/why it works. But they'd probably turn around and fail you for the metal cover plate... Be a good solution though if this happens again -- keep an extra metal cover around and have him put his other hand on some metal plumbing while you press the test button for him.

When it comes down to that, under what circumstances could you use an exposed metal box or even weatherproof cover without an EGC?
Putting in a GFCI receptacle makes the metal likely to become energized by anyone with a tester.

 

[kwired]

I would think this leakage through the inspector would also be enough to trip the GFCI. So that may be a good way to educate them that the GFCI does in fact work and perhaps get them to think about how/why it works. But they'd probably turn around and fail you for the metal cover plate... Be a good solution though if this happens again -- keep an extra metal cover around and have him put his other hand on some metal plumbing while you press the test button for him.

There is no guarantee enough current was flowing to trip the GFCI. If 5 mA flows through the right place it still gives you a hell of a jolt, but is right at the trip threshold of the GFCI and may or may not trip it.

When it comes down to that, under what circumstances could you use an exposed metal box or even weatherproof cover without an EGC?
Putting in a GFCI receptacle makes the metal likely to become energized by anyone with a tester.

I don't know all the story of this incident, maybe there was an EGC and it just was not connected properly, maybe there was a bad connection at the other end of the raceway or cable supplying this. Bottom line was the guy saw no equipment ground indicated on the tester, and learned the hard way that the test signal would be subjected to him if he was touching anything connected to the grounding terminal of that receptacle.

 

[K8MHZ]

I don't know all the story of this incident, maybe there was an EGC and it just was not connected properly, maybe there was a bad connection at the other end of the raceway or cable supplying this. Bottom line was the guy saw no equipment ground indicated on the tester, and learned the hard way that the test signal would be subjected to him if he was touching anything connected to the grounding terminal of that receptacle.

All you have to do is to be leaning against the sink faucet while you are touching the metal receptacle cover with your knuckle and hit the button to get a shock.

I heard that from an inspector that learned the hard way many years ago while he was checking downstream receptacles.

I thought it was funny....

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I believe I told this story before. I had some inspectors who did not believe that a gfci , that did have an equipment grounding conductor, would not trip when you put an appliance under water that had no equipment grounding conductor.

I went up to their office with a plastic bucket filled with water and made a pigtail from lamp cord and attached a porcelain keyless to it. I also install a 90 watt outdoor par halogen in the socket. Plugged it into a functioning gfci I installed on the cord and dropped the light lit into the bucket. To further prove my point I put my hand in the bucket. It was worth it to see their eyes pop out. They still tell everyone the story of "this crazy electrician they know".


Please don't do this unless you know what you are doing.

 

[kwired]

I believe I told this story before. I had some inspectors who did not believe that a gfci , that did have an equipment grounding conductor, would not trip when you put an appliance under water that had no equipment grounding conductor.

I went up to their office with a plastic bucket filled with water and made a pigtail from lamp cord and attached a porcelain keyless to it. I also install a 90 watt outdoor par halogen in the socket. Plugged it into a functioning gfci I installed on the cord and dropped the light lit into the bucket. To further prove my point I put my hand in the bucket. It was worth it to see their eyes pop out. They still tell everyone the story of "this crazy electrician they know".


Please don't do this unless you know what you are doing.

Seems you have a new product for marketing for under water pool lighting

I would not have been afraid to do the same thing you did.

Are you brave enough to do the same experiment with a 277 volt light?

If you are insulated from anything grounded, it should be safe to do so.