romex jockey
Senior Member
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- Vermont
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- electrician
THE ELECTRICAL FRENCH CONNEXION OR THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT AFCIs?
A long , but very interesting story
~RJ~
A long , but very interesting story
~RJ~
THE ELECTRICAL FRENCH CONNEXION OR THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT AFCIs? (English)
- Thread starter romex jockey
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junkhound
Senior Member
- Location
- Renton, WA
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- EE, power electronics specialty
If AFCI work 'as well as' the translator of that story, we iz in truble.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Fascinating, particularly in that it never actually discloses the means of operation of Cyril's invention. I can make some guesses though, and most of them leave me wondering about how effective they would be for glowing connections in the circuit neutral wires.
20 minutes for the summary I could manage. Two and a half hours (roughly) for the full documentary will have to wait.
We do already know from demonstrations that AFCIs do not detect glowing connections per se, generally will not detect the series arcs that seem to be the precursor of some or all glowing connections, and in fact do not seem to do a particularly good job of detecting serial arcs at all (except in vacuum cleaners.)
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
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- electrician
Very true GoldDigger, and frankly ..old news....circa 1977>
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build77/PDF/b77005.pdf
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build77/PDF/b77005.pdf
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
"They" clearly suppressed that by making it a public government document so that nobody would bother to read it.
Thank you very much for the link.
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romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
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- electrician
Well 'they' are the corporatists who foisted afci's on our trade GoldDigger
'they' have, for more than a decade now, managed to convince us, as well as the nfpa, cmp's, cpsc, that remote arc technology is better than point of use sensing
'they' would market it themselves ,and if they could get their hands on the patent afci's would be old news next code cycle
'they' have relentlessly pursued the holder of the patent (as the video's explain) to either extent in what is corporate espionage at it's best
'they' would have no interest in doing so, if 'they' were not threatened by fundamental electrical philosophy presented by the patent holder
Perhaps one of the most revealing documents one could read on it all is here , written by a Doctor of Electricity who worked in AFCI R&D , detailing it's entire history
RJ
'they' have, for more than a decade now, managed to convince us, as well as the nfpa, cmp's, cpsc, that remote arc technology is better than point of use sensing
'they' would market it themselves ,and if they could get their hands on the patent afci's would be old news next code cycle
'they' have relentlessly pursued the holder of the patent (as the video's explain) to either extent in what is corporate espionage at it's best
'they' would have no interest in doing so, if 'they' were not threatened by fundamental electrical philosophy presented by the patent holder
Perhaps one of the most revealing documents one could read on it all is here , written by a Doctor of Electricity who worked in AFCI R&D , detailing it's entire history
RJ
junkhound
Senior Member
- Location
- Renton, WA
- Occupation
- EE, power electronics specialty
Great link:
Perhaps worth quoting an excerpt from the conclusions in the IEEE paper of the link:
"The primary goal of this paper was to describe what a Combination AFCI circuit breaker can do, while also clarifying what it can?t do. The features of the Combination AFCI, and the earlier Branch/feeder AFCI, are listed in Table 1. Neither provides series arc protection, the Branch/feeder provides the extra important feature of 30mA ground fault protection.
The paper goes on to explain, but not justify, how the Combination AFCI came to be mandated, while the Branch/feeder that provides more protection at less cost is disallowed. The key drivers behind this were the AFCI manufacturers, their NEMA organization, and UL. The author hopes this paper will stir discussions amongst the principals and correct any errors that were made concerning their products? performance. This would also include supporting removing the Combination AFCI mandate from the NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE (NFPA 70)"
One of my co-workers in the late 1970s was on one of the NEC boards. He lamented even at that time how the manufacturers ran things for their own pocketbook.
The link in section XX has a good calculation showing between 2002 and now over $1 BILLION has been needlessly expended on devices to comply with a code manipulated to make $$ for mfg. and which also reduced safety.
Perhaps worth quoting an excerpt from the conclusions in the IEEE paper of the link:
"The primary goal of this paper was to describe what a Combination AFCI circuit breaker can do, while also clarifying what it can?t do. The features of the Combination AFCI, and the earlier Branch/feeder AFCI, are listed in Table 1. Neither provides series arc protection, the Branch/feeder provides the extra important feature of 30mA ground fault protection.
The paper goes on to explain, but not justify, how the Combination AFCI came to be mandated, while the Branch/feeder that provides more protection at less cost is disallowed. The key drivers behind this were the AFCI manufacturers, their NEMA organization, and UL. The author hopes this paper will stir discussions amongst the principals and correct any errors that were made concerning their products? performance. This would also include supporting removing the Combination AFCI mandate from the NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE (NFPA 70)"
One of my co-workers in the late 1970s was on one of the NEC boards. He lamented even at that time how the manufacturers ran things for their own pocketbook.
The link in section XX has a good calculation showing between 2002 and now over $1 BILLION has been needlessly expended on devices to comply with a code manipulated to make $$ for mfg. and which also reduced safety.
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
Well Junkhound
The video's may lend some clarity if you've (et all) have ever wondered if the NEC was influenced, manipulated , or coerced ,etc
No organization, not the nfpa, cspc , or nrtl will accommodate their concerns OR their product
This is despite some of the best written material and validation ever presented>
http://aprielec-consult.com/aprielec_national_electrical_code.html
RJ
The video's may lend some clarity if you've (et all) have ever wondered if the NEC was influenced, manipulated , or coerced ,etc
No organization, not the nfpa, cspc , or nrtl will accommodate their concerns OR their product
This is despite some of the best written material and validation ever presented>
http://aprielec-consult.com/aprielec_national_electrical_code.html
RJ
French Connection - AFCIs
French Connection - AFCIs
I have been involved in this project for several years, and I appreciate this video, which summarizes the difficulties that Cyril and his associates have encountered in trying to bring to market this safety device that will indeed save lives and prevent fires.
The NEC is an organization that mandates how we implement electrical installations in the US, and is comprised of Panels of members that represent different organizations. Many of these members are not experts and do not fully understand the technology involved in what their Panel is mandating. Some, if not most, of the panels are "stacked" with manufacturers and others whose primary goal is to advance their products to make more money. Please do not be na?ve and think that the National Electrical Code exists primarily for safety (I was na?ve and believed this at one time). Recognize that the requirements for AFCIs, which continue to expand each Code cycle, have meant BILLIONS of $$ of profit for the companies that manufacture them, and they DO NOT address the main concern of electrical fires - the glowing connection. Contact Cyril if you are interested in involvement in any way in this worthwhile project.
French Connection - AFCIs
I have been involved in this project for several years, and I appreciate this video, which summarizes the difficulties that Cyril and his associates have encountered in trying to bring to market this safety device that will indeed save lives and prevent fires.
The NEC is an organization that mandates how we implement electrical installations in the US, and is comprised of Panels of members that represent different organizations. Many of these members are not experts and do not fully understand the technology involved in what their Panel is mandating. Some, if not most, of the panels are "stacked" with manufacturers and others whose primary goal is to advance their products to make more money. Please do not be na?ve and think that the National Electrical Code exists primarily for safety (I was na?ve and believed this at one time). Recognize that the requirements for AFCIs, which continue to expand each Code cycle, have meant BILLIONS of $$ of profit for the companies that manufacture them, and they DO NOT address the main concern of electrical fires - the glowing connection. Contact Cyril if you are interested in involvement in any way in this worthwhile project.
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
Those of you that understand what has gone on through these video's, or have followed all along should know Cyril simply wishes to get the word out .
Nobody should suffer intimidation and confrontation for exposing those selling fraudulent safety products , or introducing what could be a marked improvement simply because they couldn't be bought out
RJ
Nobody should suffer intimidation and confrontation for exposing those selling fraudulent safety products , or introducing what could be a marked improvement simply because they couldn't be bought out
RJ
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
No one can ever accuse me of being in favor of AFCI's. My sources tell me that 'they' have on staff an entire department of folks who do nothing but monitor my internet posts, then join these forums for the sole purpose of drowning out my sage advice.
Still, though ....
The links aren't any better in French than they are in English. Lots of sizzle and no steak. If Cyril has a patent, let him share the details. If he has a product, let it be tested by independent parties.
Instead, we are repeatedly told that an unknowable 'they' are blocking Cyril's clever device. Such a diatribe is more worthy of a supermarket tabloid reporter.
That's quite an assertion, as the AFCI was developed on Cutler-Hammer's nickel -nothing "French" there - and the patent has been donated to the public domain. Hardly the circumstance for the French conglomerate Schneider - or whatever firms Cyril alludes to - to carve out a monopoly.
This story scores '5 alarms' on my BS detector.
Still, though ....
The links aren't any better in French than they are in English. Lots of sizzle and no steak. If Cyril has a patent, let him share the details. If he has a product, let it be tested by independent parties.
Instead, we are repeatedly told that an unknowable 'they' are blocking Cyril's clever device. Such a diatribe is more worthy of a supermarket tabloid reporter.
That's quite an assertion, as the AFCI was developed on Cutler-Hammer's nickel -nothing "French" there - and the patent has been donated to the public domain. Hardly the circumstance for the French conglomerate Schneider - or whatever firms Cyril alludes to - to carve out a monopoly.
This story scores '5 alarms' on my BS detector.
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