Qualified -vs- Unqualified NFPA 70E

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scsteven

Member
It is my understanding that anyone that is deemed qualified by their employer is allowed into the arc flash protection boundary as long as they are wearing the appropriate PPE. Is an appropriate response? So my scenario is I have fresh engineers straight out of school and apprentice electricians 3 year and below I would like them to assist in removal of a 100 amp breaker from a 1200 amp main distribution panel its a very simple task we do it all the time. So since my guys attended their training and I have pointed out the things they shouldn't do. I've familiarized them with the equipment and dressed them in my best PPE they are now ready. Oh yes this is a critical system that cannot be de-energized. Is this really the right thing to do? It seems that the overwhelming need to write rules has allowed us to circumvent the whole intention. I my opinion these types of things should not happen why would I ever say a person was qualified after attending a 12 arc flash training and training them on the hazards associated with a particular piece of equipment? It seems to me that may have a correlation with the severe shortage of skilled craftsman I the workplace please correct me if I'm wrong I truly would appreciate any input or clarification. But It seems to me we are trying replace the years of experience and practice with a short here's what you do and do now go do.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
It is my understanding that anyone that is deemed qualified by their employer is allowed into the arc flash protection boundary as long as they are wearing the appropriate PPE. Is an appropriate response? So my scenario is I have fresh engineers straight out of school and apprentice electricians 3 year and below I would like them to assist in removal of a 100 amp breaker from a 1200 amp main distribution panel its a very simple task we do it all the time. So since my guys attended their training and I have pointed out the things they shouldn't do. I've familiarized them with the equipment and dressed them in my best PPE they are now ready. Oh yes this is a critical system that cannot be de-energized. Is this really the right thing to do? It seems that the overwhelming need to write rules has allowed us to circumvent the whole intention. I my opinion these types of things should not happen why would I ever say a person was qualified after attending a 12 arc flash training and training them on the hazards associated with a particular piece of equipment? It seems to me that may have a correlation with the severe shortage of skilled craftsman I the workplace please correct me if I'm wrong I truly would appreciate any input or clarification. But It seems to me we are trying replace the years of experience and practice with a short here's what you do and do now go do.

Do you trust them to follow your lead and direction 110%? That's the last thing to cover. Are they disciplined? You have covered everything it appears. Are they ready to follow your lead and do they respect the potential danger? Do they understand that there is no room for carelessness or an error. have you assured them that there is never a dumb question, that nothing should be assumed and to be alert at all times.
Pound the need for safety into their heads.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I would not want more than one guy I felt the need to watch anywhere near me when doing this kind of thing, if I were inclined to do this kind of thing.
 

pfalcon

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
It is my understanding that anyone that is deemed qualified by their employer is allowed into the arc flash protection boundary as long as they are wearing the appropriate PPE. Is an appropriate response? ... I've familiarized them with the equipment and dressed them in my best PPE they are now ready. ... But It seems to me we are trying replace the years of experience and practice with a short here's what you do and do now go do.

No, it's not an appropriate response. Qualified is not a blanket pass to work on any job. Your description above says they've been qualified to perform general electrical work. They also have to be qualified to perform any specific task you set for them.

As the employer you have to judge whether they're ready for the specific task. Familiarization and being slapped into PPE may not be enough. Coaching them through the job by a more experienced electrician may be required before they're qualified to do it alone. You may have to limit how many get coached at any one time.

The listings for "Qualified" in NFPA70E are the bare minimum for general work. You are required to set additional requirements for pulling this breaker if the task calls for it.
 

RichB

Senior Member
Location
Tacoma, Wa
Occupation
Electrician/Electrical Inspector
let me put it this way-This is how I interpret this "qualified vs non-qualified" YMMV-Assuming you have never been around an oil processing plant--a refinery, and you are a second year apprentice, you have had the training required to safely be in the plant and what to look for as far as dangers go--and are now deemed "qualified" to work in the plant,--They have, let's say, a chemical injection system for additives to the gasoline--you have never seen one of these before--are you qualified, without further specific training, to go repair it when it is in operation and can not be shut down--Do you know what the inherent dangers specific to this operation are--

You have "qualified " the individuals to work in your plant for general operations--anything specific needs to be taught, both classroom and OJT(practical) in a separate curriculum to "qualify" them for that specific task.

You have what sounds like a good start--it just needs built onto, and FWIW--I would NOT take more than one or two at a time into the situation you described
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Being qualified to select and use PPE has nothing to do with being qualified to perform the task.

Being qualified to perform the task has nothing to do with being qualified to select and use PPE.

NFPA70E and OSHA require qualification in both task and PPE.
 

scsteven

Member
Follow up

Follow up

Thank you for all your comments, and I agree that training is mandatory and the degree of training should be determined by the risk imposed on the worker, I guess my fear is that the level of training may not always or ever be adequate again dependent on the skill level of the worker. My true take is that we as supervisors, managers, engineers and owners must know the potential and be fully confident in the abilities of the people we work with and around.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
It seems that the overwhelming need to write rules has allowed us to circumvent the whole intention.

an awful lot of regulations are written by people who sit and make up rules for a living,
and have never actually done what they are regulating others to do.

and a lot of verbiage in a lot of regulations is put there by a lawyer so that after
you have been "qualified" and signed the documents attesting to that fact, you
can't sue anyone if something goes wrong.

what drives most of this, along with everything else we do most of the time, is money.

in this case, "risk management", which is enough paper to protect the business
involved from a lawsuit. this is why you see someone on a eight foot ladder with
a five point harness., tripping over the lanyard.

or wearing safety glasses over regular glasses, so you can't see what you are doing.

or wearing long sleeve fire retardant shirts while cadwelding. yeah, that FR clothing
is gonna do well against thermite.
 

plumb bob

Member
"They" have all the bases covered. You or your employees are obviously qualified if the task goes as planned. And you or they certainly were not qualified if something goes wrong. The problem is it's too late to call someone unqualified when something goes wrong. :thumbsdown:
 
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