identification

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ohmhead

ohmhead

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ORLANDO FLA
I have a question for many years we have put wire numbers on branch circuits on the terminations inside the panels on projects .
most of the jobs we do are commercial and have two section panels .
Each breaker gets a number of that circuit number about 1/4 of a inch from termination on the wire itself is there any thing in the code which states this must be done .
We also number the neutrals on the neutral bar is this normally done by anyone else or are we wasting time does the nec code cover this or is this something we just do to waste time .

Thanks its a subject on my project now i have a supervisor who doesnt want this done and i have always installed it this way for 35 years . So what is you thoughts on this ?
 
Wire markers are not required by the NEC. As far as a waste of time opinions vary. We always individually number each conductor in a panel.
 
We don't number neutrals on the bar or conductors on breakers unless specified by the customer.
But we do ID wires on relay pins by numbers. A pain for the installer but it is a great help when troubleshooting
a wiring problem.
 
I have to agree with others, not a requirement, is a waste of time for the installer, but can be a benefit to a troubleshooter.

The circuit number at the breaker is not so much a benefit, one can fairly easily identify which breaker it is attached to, but having the same number at the other end of that conductor can really be a help to a troubleshooter.
 
If the neutral is part of a multiwire circuit it must be identified as to the associated ungrounded conductors. In the 2014 code, one permitted method to do this is circuit numbers on the neutral conductor.

Note that the requirement to identify the neutral with its associated ungrounded conductors was new for the 2011 code and required them to be "grouped" within the panel.
 
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don_resqcapt19 said:
If the neutral is part of a multiwire circuit it must be identified as to the associated ungrounded conductors. In the 2014 code, one permitted method to do this is circuit numbers on the neutral conductor.

Note that the requirement to identify the neutral with its associated ungrounded conductors was new for the 2011 code and required them to be "grouped" within the panel.
Click to expand...

Forgot about that one. But we don't do MWBC's.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
If the neutral is part of a multiwire circuit it must be identified as to the associated ungrounded conductors. In the 2014 code, one permitted method to do this is circuit numbers on the neutral conductor.

Note that the requirement to identify the neutral with its associated ungrounded conductors was new for the 2011 code and required them to be "grouped" within the panel.
Click to expand...

I think it is worth noting that the 2011 only required grouping of multiwire branch circuits, and only at the panel at that.
The 2014 added 200.4(B) which requires bundling of all groups, even if not multiwire and also now requires grouping at all locations -not just the panel. This is a pretty big change, but I think a good one as it will help prevent mixed up neutrals which to me has been a chronic problem for years.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
If the neutral is part of a multiwire circuit it must be identified as to the associated ungrounded conductors. In the 2014 code, one permitted method to do this is circuit numbers on the neutral conductor.

Note that the requirement to identify the neutral with its associated ungrounded conductors was new for the 2011 code and required them to be "grouped" within the panel.
Click to expand...

Actually, I think the requirement to bundle multiwire circuits first appeared in the 2008 edition.
 
Adding circuit numbers is a specification type requirement, and will vary from project to project. If the contract documents don't ask for it, and/or it wasn't part of the bid price, then don't do it.
 
A wire marker on the neutral of a MWBC is superior to a piece of tape buried in the back of the panel gutter. ;)
 
Hey guys thanks for the input its something we do on every job yes most jobs that have it in the specs its done seems this one doesn't .
I think the application of the number on the wire on each breaker would help in the event that during testing each circuit with 84 circuits
in a two section panel might save time if something is crossed .

Thanks for the response
 
qcroanoke said:
Forgot about that one. But we don't do MWBC's.
Click to expand...
Do you connect electric ranges or electric clothes dryers? They usually are MWBC's, but if you run them in a separate raceway or cable you already have them identified in an acceptable way by the separate entry into the panel.
 
kwired said:
Do you connect electric ranges or electric clothes dryers? They usually are MWBC's, but if you run them in a separate raceway or cable you already have them identified in an acceptable way by the separate entry into the panel.
Click to expand...

No, we don't do residential.
Communications, sub-stations and police and fire radio buildings are what we do.
 
qcroanoke said:
No, we don't do residential.
Communications, sub-stations and police and fire radio buildings are what we do.
Click to expand...
You never run into equipment that needs multiple phases as well as a neutral? That would be a MWBC. But again if run in a separate raceway or cable from other circuits, it is already identified simply by being in a separate entry to the panel.
 
kwired said:
You never run into equipment that needs multiple phases as well as a neutral? That would be a MWBC. But again if run in a separate raceway or cable from other circuits, it is already identified simply by being in a separate entry to the panel.
Click to expand...

occasionally, Mostly on overseas projects. A good point. I shall bring that up when I see it on drawings.
 
I work on many panels and projects where wire numbers on every wire, control or power, is an owner requirement. I'm sure the concept is to aid in trouble shooting or modification in the future. But when I am trouble shooting or modifying a system, I always take wire numbers, especially field installed ones, with a grain of salt. It isn't unusual to find that the reason a circuit won't work is because a wire has one number at one end and a different number at the other end.:slaphead:
 
wallypiper said:
I work on many panels and projects where wire numbers on every wire, control or power, is an owner requirement. I'm sure the concept is to aid in trouble shooting or modification in the future. But when I am trouble shooting or modifying a system, I always take wire numbers, especially field installed ones, with a grain of salt. It isn't unusual to find that the reason a circuit won't work is because a wire has one number at one end and a different number at the other end.:slaphead:
Click to expand...

An occasional mistake in identification is still better than having no identification at all
 
408.4 Field Identification Required.
(A) Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification. Every circuit
and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to
its clear, evident, and specific purpose or use. The identification
shall include sufficient detail to allow each circuit to
be distinguished from all others. Spare positions that contain
unused overcurrent devices or switches shall be described
accordingly. The identification shall be included in
a circuit directory that is located on the face or inside of the
panel door in the case of a panelboard, and located at each
switch or circuit breaker in (new 2011) a switchboard. No circuit shall
be described in a manner that depends on transient conditions
of occupancy.

"at each" ?????
 
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