Options to Add Ckts in Residential Installation

[deskjockey]

First time post.

My experience is in power systems design engineering, installation, and commissioning in industrial petro-chem applications... needless to say I have little experience in residential wiring norms and I'm seeking some input on a few options I'm considering.

Situation:
Home built in 1979, 16 ckt load center, 100A Main, no spare space.
Kitchen remodel requires addition of 1-2 circuits.
Current and future connected load doesn't warrant a 200A service.
Plenty of wall space and working clearance at location of existing panel.

Other:
Local code requires ckts ran in conduit (emt).
Permit and inspection will based on 2011NEC with local amendments.

I'm debating these options:

1. Add a small sub panel, move over 2 ckts, add a 2 pole breaker to feed sub-panel. Add additional circuits as required to remaining space in sub-panel.

2. Change out existing panel for a 200A 25-KAIC panel with space for 32 ckts, install a 100A main. Move over all ckts. Idea being that if for some reason in the future the connected load warrants a 200A service it would be a small job to upgrade.

3. Same as above... leave 200A main, upgrade the service for the benefit of having flexability and for future homeowners.

4. Upgrade service, add a small 200A panel, 12 ckts, 200A main, feed current main panel as sub-panel, use remaining space to to add new circuits.

My preference is option 1 to save time and money. However, I wanted to put it to some folks with residential experience to understand what their preference would be and why? What would be most commonly done? I'm not opposed to spending more especially if it saved time.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I spoke with the OP and am allowing this thread.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You can certainly add a sub panel but IMO I would prefer to change out the panel and have one new one especially if the old panel is original. What brand panel is it. If it is an FPE the decision would be simple

 

[John120/240]

I would go for option #2. If the existing panel is still a common one found today, reuse the current breakers if you choose. SQ D QO or HO, CH Classic or BR, Siemens would all be acceptable to me.

 

[PetrosA]

I like option 2 as well, but would recommend checking the price difference between a 200A 32 cir. panel with a 100A main breaker (it has to be able to be screwed in) vs. just getting a 30 circuit 100A panel with main. I know Cutler-Hammer makes them. If the house is relatively small (under 1800 sq. ft.) and heat, hot water, cooking etc. is all gas or other non-electric, it really wouldn't make sense to upgrade to 200A.

 

[suemarkp]

In most areas, if you replace the main service disconnect, you may need to bring the Service up to current codes. That may not be too bad for something built in 79. But you should check with the power company to see what they require a new or altered service to have, and whether you've got it (service drop clearance could be an issue if overhead). Then, check with your electrical inspection department and see what they want done. Here, I think it would be installing a second ground rod if you only have one (unless you have a UFER or some other non-made electrode). Since you're not increasing the disconnect amp rating, that saves a lot of work (no increased GEC, no increased Service Entrance Conductors, no increased raceway size). Some places may require AFCI breaker upgrades, but i think most do not.

One other detail with the main panel change out is how well do the new knock outs align with the old ones. Since this was done in EMT, moving those around may not be easy. If you had an industrial panel with no knockouts, you could punch your own in the proper locations. But resi panels are pre-punched. They all appear similar, but I've never checked across brands to see if there is some commonality between the makers in knockout pattern.

If you have the working space, adding a subpanel should be easy and cheap. That subpanel could also be 100A on a 100A feeder.

A variation on #2 would be to install a larger 100A or 125A panel. C-H makes a 24 slot 125A resi panel which comes with a back fed 100A main. So you have 22 free slots when it is installed. This panel is not nearly as tall as their 200A panels. Not sure if height would be an issue or not.

 

[James L]

There is an option that I didn't see listed, which would be the route I would go.

Change out the existing panel with a 100 amp, 30- space Main Breaker panel. Siemens has one for around 90 dollars.
If you don't need 200 amps, this would be a more cost effective solution to buying a 200 amp panel and installing a 100 amp main.

To install a subpanel, move 2 circuits, add the feed into the main panel and fight through all the existing grounds and neutrals to find space to land the new ones, you can usually just change the whole main panel in about the same amount of time. A panel change out usually doesn't take more than 2-3 hours

 

[ActionDave]

Count me in with the option 2 gang. At some point you are going to do wish you did if you don't.

 

[norcal]

The panel rated for the use of twin breakers? I hate twins but this is a case where they could do well, lot cheaper to add the twins to create additional space.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I'm sorry but if you can afford a kitchen remodel upgrading a 30 year old service should not blow your budget.

 

[Smart $]

The panel rated for the use of twin breakers? I hate twins but this is a case where they could do well, lot cheaper to add the twins to create additional space.

Ditto... provided the existing panel shows no signs of performance degradation.

 

[suemarkp]

And as long as AFCI's aren't required (may be OK in a kitchen if its only the kitchen)... Has anyone ever seen a twin AFCI? I see installs of twins being problematic in the future as people renovate and get hit with AFCI requirements.

 

[Smart $]

And as long as AFCI's aren't required (may be OK in a kitchen if its only the kitchen)... Has anyone ever seen a twin AFCI? I see installs of twins being problematic in the future as people renovate and get hit with AFCI requirements.

Well depending on number of circuits being added (seems to be 2 kitchen only), couldn't the existing be condensed onto tandems, and [full-space] AFCI breakers be added for any req'd?

 

[arion]

with today's ever growing demand on the power used in the home a 200@ ch panel would be wise and pay off i recommend the ch series panels they accept twin and all the regular breakers that are ch series (note ch makes two residential series panels one uses the br series breakers they are cheaper breakers but the br series panel uses alum buses the ch series load-center panels use copper) also for the feed between the load side of the meter base and the main breaker in the panel i suggest copper thhn i dont care what they claim about alum conductors if you have the choice dont use alum in your wiring

 

[Nutmegger]

"With today's ever growing demand on the power used in the home a 200@ ch panel would be wise"

I read somewhere that with the new construction homes becoming more energy efficient, for small-to-medium size houses, we will be seeing fewer and fewer 200 and more amp services, and more and more 100 to 150 amp ones.
From our jobs, I can't see a trend either way yet.. What do you guys think or see out there?

By the way, speaking of a panel upgrade breaking the bank.. The boss does the bidding/pricing, so I'm not privvied to too much of that, but where you guys are, what's the price of an average panel upgrade provided the service entrance is not being upgraded?
AFAIK, on average, for us an upgrade from 100 to 200, parts and labor runs around 1500.

 

[readydave8]

with today's ever growing demand on the power used in the home a 200@ ch panel would be wise and pay off i recommend the ch series panels they accept twin and all the regular breakers that are ch series (note ch makes two residential series panels one uses the br series breakers they are cheaper breakers but the br series panel uses alum buses the ch series load-center panels use copper) also for the feed between the load side of the meter base and the main breaker in the panel i suggest copper thhn i dont care what they claim about alum conductors if you have the choice dont use alum in your wiring

Personally I have occasionally had problems with CH panels but never with AL entrance cable. Except direct buried, pipe and copper in that case.

 

[mjf]

Personally I have occasionally had problems with CH panels but never with AL entrance cable. Except direct buried, pipe and copper in that case.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[James L]

Personally I have occasionally had problems with CH panels but never with AL entrance cable...

I agree.

The only time I've seen problems with AL is when Hercules decides to use a 4' cheater to tighten a lug screw. If it's tightened to the point that the wire strands are smashed flat, or are no longer under the screw...

"Ummm, sir, I think I might know why your main breaker smells like melted plastic."

 

[deskjockey]

Thanks for your input.

Thanks for your input.

Quick update.

I went with option 2. 200A panel, 100A main. Thanks for all the input and ideas.

Thanks even for the two cents on budgetary constraints being irrelevant, just pay to upgrade the service! I got a kick out of it. No technical rationale required, bigger is better!

For what it's worth, I discussed the merits of a few options with both the electrician and the utility engineer, they both voted option 2 as well.