European Outlet Amp Ratings

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mbrooke

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This will be a good read!


I don't have much to add, but I have always wondered.


Why are ring circuits legal in the UK? Wont the place burn down if a wire gets loose?
 

GoldDigger

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This will be a good read!


I don't have much to add, but I have always wondered.


Why are ring circuits legal in the UK? Wont the place burn down if a wire gets loose?
The place will burn down in the US if a wire gets loose too!

It is not necessarily a more hazardous method of wiring as long as the electricians are familiar with it and it arguably can save on copper when a particular voltage drop is called for and can provide some redundancy in the case of a wire break (at the expense of overloading the other side of the ring circuit until it is repaired.)
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
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Technician
The place will burn down in the US if a wire gets loose too!

It is not necessarily a more hazardous method of wiring as long as the electricians are familiar with it and it arguably can save on copper when a particular voltage drop is called for and can provide some redundancy in the case of a wire break (at the expense of overloading the other side of the ring circuit until it is repaired.)


But that's why it makes me wonder, its a fire hazard. I mean couldn't they just do a radial rub of 30 amps wire instead of the 2 15amps to make a ring? Even with qualified personnel, connections still can get loose. :?
 

GoldDigger

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Location
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But that's why it makes me wonder, its a fire hazard. I mean couldn't they just do a radial rub of 30 amps wire instead of the 2 15amps to make a ring? Even with qualified personnel, connections still can get loose. :?
Maybe Besoeker can clarify what the ampacity requirements actually are for a ring circuit and whether there is enough of a safety factor built in to alleviate that concern?
 

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
I want to market the test equipment to the EU. ...
If your equipment requires less than 10A, isn't the outlet which is common on electronics here in the USA your best option? There are connecting cords (the 81131 from your linked site) to most, if not all, standard mains receptacles. Their 83221 fits the UK receptacle. And most of us have drawers full from "retired" equipments.
 
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GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
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Retired
I do believe they are based on an IEC standard. Some of the ratings you see on IEC equipment that is used in the US may give you clues as to what may be popular sizes used there. I know 16 amps is one of those sizes.

Kind of funny how they have standardized most everything in European countries on the metric system with base of 10 for most measurements, then these particular items are seldom standardized in units divisible by 10;)
Just 10 is too coarse. I found some while back that there are "preferred numbers" which I believe are based on roots of 10. To take the decade of 10 ... 100, there are 10, 12.5, 16, 20, 25, 32, 40, 50, 63, 80, 100. Think of it kinda like the resistor standard values.
 

fifty60

Senior Member
Location
USA
The equipment has a 12A FLA rating. I am thinking part number 80101 which is a 16A 250V detachable cord set (IEC 60320).

With the C13 connector, would it be easy for any of the European Union countries to attach the correct chord, or for us to quickly swap out the chord for the correct configuration?

Thanks,

Jason R
 

mbrooke

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Location
United States
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Technician
Are there limits to how much current an appliance can draw in Britain or Europe?



In the USA space heaters are limited to 12 amps at 120 volts, or 1500 watts. Hair dryers and toaster ovens can go up to 1800 watts or 15 amps at 120 volts.


In the kitchen, laundry and bathroom sockets we use #12 on a 20 amp breaker by code (15amp not allowed) since heavy appliances can get plugged in.


All other regular sockets are an option of either 15 amp on 14 gauge or 20 amp on 12 gauge, however 15 amp tends to be the norm outside of the kitchen, laundry and bathroom.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Are there limits to how much current an appliance can draw in Britain or Europe?



In the USA space heaters are limited to 12 amps at 120 volts, or 1500 watts. Hair dryers and toaster ovens can go up to 1800 watts or 15 amps at 120 volts.


In the kitchen, laundry and bathroom sockets we use #12 on a 20 amp breaker by code (15amp not allowed) since heavy appliances can get plugged in.


All other regular sockets are an option of either 15 amp on 14 gauge or 20 amp on 12 gauge, however 15 amp tends to be the norm outside of the kitchen, laundry and bathroom.

He's not making home appliances. He's making industrial machinery.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
The equipment has a 12A FLA rating. I am thinking part number 80101 which is a 16A 250V detachable cord set (IEC 60320).

With the C13 connector, would it be easy for any of the European Union countries to attach the correct chord, or for us to quickly swap out the chord for the correct configuration?

Thanks,

Jason R

Aren't you just swapping out the plug on the end of the cord?
 

AdrianWint

Senior Member
Location
Midlands, UK
I'll have a go at defending the honour of the ring final .....:roll:

The ring final was devised just after the end of WWII as a way of minimising the amount of cable needed in domestic wiring.

The ring final consists of a loop of 2.5mm sq twin & earth (similar to your romex) which starts at a MCB in the breaker box, loops around a number of 13A socket outlets & returns to the same MCB. The phase, neutral & earth conductors are all run in a ring. The ring final is very common in domestic wiring - I'd say every house has it least one such circuit ... my home has three (three story Victorian house, 6 beds, 13 rooms in total). The ring final is also used extensively in commercial work - offices, retail etc.

2.5mm sq cable has a rating of around 21-24A depending upon its installation method and the ring final is normally connected to a 32A MCB, so, while the circuit remains a ring all is well & good .... the cable is well over-rated for the job.

Now, lets consider what happens if the ring becomes broken ..... we now have two radial circuits connected to the same breaker but the cable is now rated at less than the tripping current of the MCB. Obviously not good & not ideal, but, in reality the house probably won't burn. Here's why..... The cable is good for around 24A. Our nominal voltage here is 230V, so 24A equates to 24 x 230 = 5520W. So.... we need to pull more than 5kW from the circuit before it becomes a problem. Realistically no amount of TV's, VCRs, small appliances are going to need this much power.... the only real way pull this much current would be using heaters. All 'fixed' heaters should be wired on their own dedicated circuits as should fixed water heaters ... so they shouldn't contribute to the loading on the damaged ring final. The most likely candidates would be portable heaters (which tend to be 2kW convectors or fan heaters) or laundry equipment (washer, dryer etc). In order to over-heat the 2.5mm sq cable the load would have to be much greater than 24A for a prolonged period ... the laundry equipment tends to cycle once its reached temperature so that probably won't do it .... that only leaves portable heaters. We'd need 3 x 2kW heaters ( approx. 26A) to overload that cable .... even then the overload would only be in the order of 9% ... and how long would 6kW of heat run for before it started to cycle on its thermostats?

So, although, at first glance the ring final does seem to pose a danger of an open circuit which wouldn't be readily detected by the homeowner.... in reality its unlikely that this failure would actually result in a fire. There are also certain other things in our wiring methods which lessen the risk: we don't use wirenuts or pig tails - both conductors will terminate in a tunnel terminal on the receptacle itself (this design clamps down on the conductors ... we don't wrap the conductor around a screw head). Old school electricians will also wire the ring final without actually cutting the cable (they will remove a section of the insulation with a knife, form the conductor into a 'u' shape & terminate that in the terminal, so even if it does come out continuity of the ring is not lost).

There are various tests which have been devised to prove ring circuit continuity & these are a required part of an inspection & test on an electrical installation.

Adrian
 

AdrianWint

Senior Member
Location
Midlands, UK
Are there limits to how much current an appliance can draw in Britain or Europe?
.

In the UK the only domestic outlet is the 13A socket. That will provide 13 x 230 = 2990W.

The only items which would require more power are the cooker (range) or electric shower (8 - 10KW). These items would be hardwired on a dedicated circuit. Anything portable & needing more than 3kW is unheard of in a domestic setting here in the UK.


Even in a commercial setting 99% of the convenience outlets would be 13A sockets. Many offices will have no other outlet. In heavier industry then the 'Ceeform' would be outlet of choice. These come in 16A, 32A, 63A & 125A flavours.


Adrian
 
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fifty60

Senior Member
Location
USA
For CE and UL, we are classified as electrical equipment for measurement, control, and lab use. We are not considered appliance or industrial machinery.

If we were industrial machinery, we would have to go with the "CEEFORM" which looks like they are IEC 60309 rated. Since we fall under the test equipment (UL and IEC 61010) then we can use the IEC 60320 plugs...these would be the "SCHUKO" plugs. This is advantageous for cost more than anything, and hopefully availability on the European side of things.

If you had to install an outlet in your laboratory, would the SCHUKO or the CEEFORM be preffered? I assume you are talking more about the UK...I think the SCHUKO is more common throughout the rest of Europe.
 
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mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I'll have a go at defending the honour of the ring final .....:roll:

The ring final was devised just after the end of WWII as a way of minimising the amount of cable needed in domestic wiring.

The ring final consists of a loop of 2.5mm sq twin & earth (similar to your romex) which starts at a MCB in the breaker box, loops around a number of 13A socket outlets & returns to the same MCB. The phase, neutral & earth conductors are all run in a ring. The ring final is very common in domestic wiring - I'd say every house has it least one such circuit ... my home has three (three story Victorian house, 6 beds, 13 rooms in total). The ring final is also used extensively in commercial work - offices, retail etc.

2.5mm sq cable has a rating of around 21-24A depending upon its installation method and the ring final is normally connected to a 32A MCB, so, while the circuit remains a ring all is well & good .... the cable is well over-rated for the job.

Now, lets consider what happens if the ring becomes broken ..... we now have two radial circuits connected to the same breaker but the cable is now rated at less than the tripping current of the MCB. Obviously not good & not ideal, but, in reality the house probably won't burn. Here's why..... The cable is good for around 24A. Our nominal voltage here is 230V, so 24A equates to 24 x 230 = 5520W. So.... we need to pull more than 5kW from the circuit before it becomes a problem. Realistically no amount of TV's, VCRs, small appliances are going to need this much power.... the only real way pull this much current would be using heaters. All 'fixed' heaters should be wired on their own dedicated circuits as should fixed water heaters ... so they shouldn't contribute to the loading on the damaged ring final. The most likely candidates would be portable heaters (which tend to be 2kW convectors or fan heaters) or laundry equipment (washer, dryer etc). In order to over-heat the 2.5mm sq cable the load would have to be much greater than 24A for a prolonged period ... the laundry equipment tends to cycle once its reached temperature so that probably won't do it .... that only leaves portable heaters. We'd need 3 x 2kW heaters ( approx. 26A) to overload that cable .... even then the overload would only be in the order of 9% ... and how long would 6kW of heat run for before it started to cycle on its thermostats?

So, although, at first glance the ring final does seem to pose a danger of an open circuit which wouldn't be readily detected by the homeowner.... in reality its unlikely that this failure would actually result in a fire. There are also certain other things in our wiring methods which lessen the risk: we don't use wirenuts or pig tails - both conductors will terminate in a tunnel terminal on the receptacle itself (this design clamps down on the conductors ... we don't wrap the conductor around a screw head). Old school electricians will also wire the ring final without actually cutting the cable (they will remove a section of the insulation with a knife, form the conductor into a 'u' shape & terminate that in the terminal, so even if it does come out continuity of the ring is not lost).

There are various tests which have been devised to prove ring circuit continuity & these are a required part of an inspection & test on an electrical installation.

Adrian



:D:D:happyyes:


Excellent explanation!!! I thank you a lot!:) It makes sense now.


Not bashing anything, but are the washer and dryer on dedicated circuits or tied in with the general ring mains that serve other rooms? I only ask because in the US the laundry equipment is on dedicated circuits as required by code.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Kind of funny how they have standardized most everything in European countries on the metric system with base of 10 for most measurements, then these particular items are seldom standardized in units divisible by 10;)
Base ten and metric (SI) are sometimes conflated but they are two different things.
The US dollar and cent is a decimal (base ten) currency as in the UK pound and penny introduced in the 1970s.
Neither is metric or SI.

The merit of SI is how the units hang together.
One volt times one amp is one watt.
A joule per second.
A newton metre per second.
Shaft power P=Tw.
W being radians per second.

The confusion with decimal possibly comes about because of the units and multiples.
Take the unit of length. The SI unit is the metre. That's it. Sub multiples like millimeter and multiples like km are used where appropriate. And for some reason, only known to their breed, packers use cm. But all using one standard. The metre.

By way of contrast, Imperial has the inch, foot, yard, and mile.
 

AdrianWint

Senior Member
Location
Midlands, UK
:Not bashing anything, but are the washer and dryer on dedicated circuits or tied in with the general ring mains that serve other rooms? I only ask because in the US the laundry equipment is on dedicated circuits as required by code.


Domestic washers & dryers will be under 3kW and will come factory fitted with a 13A plug. As such they can be used on any outlet that the householder wishes.

Realistically, they'll be used either in the kitchen, laundry/utility or garage. The smart designer will realise this & make provision (he could provide a radial for the laundry equipment or he could make the ring finals overlap in kitchen) but he wont be violating any rules if he doesn't.

Adrian
 

AdrianWint

Senior Member
Location
Midlands, UK
For CE and UL, we are classified as electrical equipment for measurement, control, and lab use. We are not considered appliance or industrial machinery.

If we were industrial machinery, we would have to go with the "CEEFORM" which looks like they are IEC 60309 rated. Since we fall under the test equipment (UL and IEC 61010) then we can use the IEC 60320 plugs...these would be the "SCHUKO" plugs. This is advantageous for cost more than anything, and hopefully availability on the European side of things.

If you had to install an outlet in your laboratory, would the SCHUKO or the CEEFORM be preffered? I assume you are talking more about the UK...I think the SCHUKO is more common throughout the rest of Europe.

For test equipment that intended to be used in normal office type environment (ie. heated, normally 'dry' space for which a human doesn't need any special protection) then the normal 13A socket outlet would be fine. Use of the IEC C13/C14 connector is fine. All the test gear on my bench at work (scope's, signal generator, bench power supplies etc) has C13/C14s & connects via the 13A plug. Ceeforms would only be used where the power requirement is greater than 13A or needs something a little more water resistant then the 13A plug.


Schuko isn't really found in the UK. We use the 13A plug exclusively in domestic/office/light commercial.

Adrian
 

fifty60

Senior Member
Location
USA
Is the Schuko plug gaining wider acceptance throughout the EU? Would it be more common to find the Schuko plug available in the rest of Europe?

This equipment is not really normal "bench" type stuff. Though, it is considered a "benchtop" piece of equipment relative to our other offerings, but It is more like the size of about 3 standard micro waves. Our other products are normally the size of refrigerators and even larger, for them I would want to use the CEEFORM type plug.

For this equipment, the FLA is 12A...it will normally draw below that...it would be pushing it on a 13A outlet. We have a 115V counterpart to this same equipment that we sell in the US that uses a normal 20A plug. It is CE marked and UL evaluated under the 61010 standard, which is for measuring and testing lab equipment.
 
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