Ansul system

[Purcell922]

This is not really an electrical question, but I have been thinking about it for a while.


I am working at a school right now with a kitchen....but there is no Ansul (sp?) system in place.
The kitchen has several burners, in which I believe, would require the Ansul.

Would this be something that needs to be brought up? And would the EC be responsible for putting it in, or would it be fire alarm?

 

[jusme123]

mech contractors install the system, qualified electrical contractor wires the fire alarm portion of it, normally just a set of contacts to alert fa panel and shut down power at cooking hood, in my experience

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Here we use the International Mechanical Code

507.2.1 Type I hoods.
Type I hoods shall be installed where cooking appliances produce grease or smoke as a result of the cooking process. Type I hoods shall be installed over medium-duty, heavy-duty and extra-heavy-duty cooking appliances. Type I hoods shall be installed over light-duty cooking appliances that produce grease or smoke.

Exception: A Type I hood shall not be required for an electric cooking appliance where an approved testing agency provides documentation that the appliance effluent contains 5 mg/m³ or less of grease when tested at an exhaust flow rate of 500 cfm (0.236 m³/s) in accordance with Section 17 of UL 710B

509.1 Where required.
Commercial cooking appliances required by Section 507.2.1 to have a Type I hood shall be provided with an approved automatic fire suppression system complying with the International Building Code and the International Fire Code.

In NJ there is a seperate licenses required for the ansul system, gas shut off, and electrical serving the hood. The fire alarm work can be done by an ec or someone with a fire alarm license. Unfortunately there is no licensing requirements for the hood installer. Permits are required for everything.

 

[sandplayer150]

type 1 hood must turn off all electrical under hood including lights,turn off make up air unit, but keep exhaust fan on.It also needs to shut off gas as well and some interconnect the RTU as well.

 

[mgookin]

...
I am working at a school right now with a kitchen....but there is no Ansul (sp?) system in place.
The kitchen has several burners, in which I believe, would require the Ansul.

Would this be something that needs to be brought up? ...

It starts at what are those burners for. They're in a kitchen in a school. That requires a Type 1 Hood. A Type 1 Hood has many requirements, including Automatic Fire Suppression, and then that has all kinds of requirements. Let's agree there should be a hood & fire suppression, for discussion purposes. You're asking if it should be brought up. I think most people would agree that it would be proper to notify your customer that you identified what you believe to be non-compliance on a life-safety issue.

 

[Wenty4]

Ansul system

Is the kitchen the commercial kitchen which prepares all the school meals or is it in the home economics room (where they are usually residential range? If it is the latter no hood is required.

 

[gadfly56]

Is the kitchen the commercial kitchen which prepares all the school meals or is it in the home economics room (where they are usually residential range? If it is the latter no hood is required.

An excellent question, and you are correct, if it's not commercial equipment, no hood is needed.

 

[mgookin]

An excellent question, and you are correct, if it's not commercial equipment, no hood is needed.

Around here they would make you have a hood. It's not what type of equipment it is; it's where it's installed. Commercial use of any cooktop requires the hood if it produces grease laden vapors. I can see how other jurisdictions would look at it differently.

 

[gadfly56]

Around here they would make you have a hood. It's not what type of equipment it is; it's where it's installed. Commercial use of any cooktop requires the hood if it produces grease laden vapors. I can see how other jurisdictions would look at it differently.

Jurisdictions are free to make any adjustments they feel necessary, but if you go by the plain vanilla NFPA 96, NFPA 17A, and the IMC, only commercial cooking equipment needs to be covered. In that case, a resi range top in a deli wouldn't need a hood. The fire marshall may not like it, but without local amendments the standard codes would allow it.

 

[mgookin]

Jurisdictions are free to make any adjustments they feel necessary, but if you go by the plain vanilla NFPA 96, NFPA 17A, and the IMC, only commercial cooking equipment needs to be covered. In that case, a resi range top in a deli wouldn't need a hood. The fire marshall may not like it, but without local amendments the standard codes would allow it.

I believe it comes to the interpretation of "commercial cooking equipment" and here it's defined as any cooking equipment used for commercial purposes.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Here is the definition of commercial cooking appliance from the International Mechanical Code 2012. By this definition a residential cooking appliance is considered a commercial cooking appliance when used as one.

COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed through a local exhaust ventilation system. Such appliances include deep fat fryers; upright broilers; griddles; broilers; steam-jacketed kettles; hot-top ranges; under-fired broilers (charbroilers); ovens; barbecues; rotisseries; and similar appliances. For the purpose of this definition, a food service establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof used for the preparation and serving of food.

 

[gadfly56]

Here is the definition of commercial cooking appliance from the International Mechanical Code 2012. By this definition a residential cooking appliance is considered a commercial cooking appliance when used as one.

COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed through a local exhaust ventilation system. Such appliances include deep fat fryers; upright broilers; griddles; broilers; steam-jacketed kettles; hot-top ranges; under-fired broilers (charbroilers); ovens; barbecues; rotisseries; and similar appliances. For the purpose of this definition, a food service establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof used for the preparation and serving of food.

Well, wasn't I wrong! :ashamed::slaphead: Is NJ now on 2012 for the IMC? I don't remember seeing anything from DCA.

 

[GoldDigger]

So, is the hypothetical school home economics classroom a commercial cooking establishment or not? If the food is not sold, where is the commerce? And does a six burner range plus flat top in a residential kitchen require a hood?

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[mgookin]

So, is the hypothetical school home economics classroom a commercial cooking establishment or not? If the food is not sold, where is the commerce? And does a six burner range plus flat top in a residential kitchen require a hood?

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Commercial building with an area that prepares and serves food. Food is free at Google; they still need a hood (and they can afford it). Commerce is not part of the equation.

 

[GoldDigger]

Commercial building with an area that prepares and serves food. Food is free at Google; they still need a hood (and they can afford it). Commerce is not part of the equation.

And unless the NEC provides a different definition, I would say that in common English a public school would not be a commercial building, at least in zoning.
If the code meant commercial to be everything but residential, it should have said so.

 

[gadfly56]

So, is the hypothetical school home economics classroom a commercial cooking establishment or not? If the food is not sold, where is the commerce? And does a six burner range plus flat top in a residential kitchen require a hood?

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Based on Rick's cite, the answer to the last question is definitely no, since it's not used for commercial purposes, although I have run across kitchens in one or two really awesome homes that had suppression systems. Since the home ec class is for educational purposes, not commercial, I'd say probably not need in this case either. Although, what happens if the home ec class bakes up a couple gross of cookies for a school fund raiser?:?

 

[gadfly56]

Commercial building with an area that prepares and serves food. Food is free at Google; they still need a hood (and they can afford it). Commerce is not part of the equation.

Respectfully disagree. The occupancy is educational, not mercantile or business.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Well, wasn't I wrong! :ashamed::slaphead: Is NJ now on 2012 for the IMC? I don't remember seeing anything from DCA.

No, NJ is still on the 2009 but there is no definition given there and this is a national forum.

 

[mgookin]

Respectfully disagree. The occupancy is educational, not mercantile or business.

Commercial is not an occupancy classification.
If it's not 1&2 Family or within a dwelling unit of multi-family, it's commercial.

 

[gadfly56]

Commercial is not an occupancy classification.
If it's not 1&2 Family or within a dwelling unit of multi-family, it's commercial.

Is a church a commercial building? What about my storage shed?