Does a GFCI superseed a AFCI

[sipher]

So the other day we had a Job where we were re-using the existing wiring in a couple of bedrooms, the old wiring was 2 wire so the thought was ok gfci protect it to allow the installation of 3 wire outlets and afci the circuit. But my question is do we have too? I know the afci has some gfci characteristics but that they aren't sufficient to meet code but does the gfci have the proper protection to not install afci outlets, or am just trying to be to cheap?

 

[augie47]

The GF protection inherent with AFCIs is not at the 5ma level required for personnel GFCI protection so, IMO, it would not serve the purpose that 406.3 requires.

 

[mbrooke]

GFCI supersedes ground fault protection. 5ma for a GFCI, 30 for some AFCI, a few older versions don't even have it.


However, a GFCI has no arc fault logic, an arc fault wont trip it.

 

[jxofaltrds]

So the other day we had a Job where we were re-using the existing wiring in a couple of bedrooms, the old wiring was 2 wire so the thought was ok gfci protect it to allow the installation of 3 wire outlets and afci the circuit. But my question is do we have too? I know the afci has some gfci characteristics but that they aren't sufficient to meet code but does the gfci have the proper protection to not install afci outlets, or am just trying to be to cheap?

I get what you are saying. I do not have the 2014 NEC but I am using the 2011 NEC and see where you are going. A Non?Grounding-Type Receptacle being replaced in a bedroom would have to be TR and AFCI protected so no longer can a non-grounding-type or a GFCI receptacle replace it.

So a GFCI breaker supplying that circuit and replace the receptacle with a TR AFCI receptacle.

Sound right?

 

[jaylectricity]

Sound right?

No. It doesn't sound right at all. Did you mean AFCI breaker and GFCI receptacle? Or is there a new code in the 2014 that doesn't allow GFCI 3-prong receptacles on an ungrounded circuit anymore?

 

[jxofaltrds]

No. It doesn't sound right at all. Did you mean AFCI breaker and GFCI receptacle? Or is there a new code in the 2014 that doesn't allow GFCI 3-prong receptacles on an ungrounded circuit anymore?

That could work too.

They would need TR, AFCI and GFCI as of Jan 1st. (2011 NEC)

 

[mjf]

Dear everybody,

Please state what code cycle you are working under when you post a question. It does make a big difference. Thanks in advance.:thumbsup:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... 5ma for a GFCI, 30 for some AFCI, a few older versions don't even have it.
....

I believe that all of the older branch circuit/feeder AFCIs had GFP and all of the newer combination ones, other than GE have GFP.

 

[jurban]

No GFCI ACFI combination breakers for Seimens/Murray

No GFCI ACFI combination breakers for Seimens/Murray

To add to this knowledge base: I just got off the phone with the Seimens technical support and have verified that they do not have a product that provides both ACFI and GFCI protection. If you need to have them to protect a circuit (like I do in my San Francisco kitchen) you will have use separate devices. I'll have to have the GFCI at the outlet and ACFI at the breaker. The AFCI "Combination" breaker only addresses the various AFCI circumstances and will not trip during a GFCI test (verified by my last, failed, electrical inspection :-( ). There "may" be other products out there, but the technical engineer stated that it is not a simple function to include in a single breaker (he said it would be "impossible", but also qualified that he wasn't a genius) . So, don't be fooled by anyone stating that you can get this functionality in a single breaker without talking to a the manufacturer. You may be cutting holes in finished walls like I may have to now do.
--Joe

 

[north star]

~ ~ ( ) ~ ~

"sipher asked:

Does a GFCI superseed a AFCI ?

So the other day we had a Job where we were re-using the existing wiring in a couple of bedrooms, the old wiring was 2 wire so the thought was ok gfci protect it to allow the installation of 3 wire outlets and afci the circuit. But my question is do we have too? I know the afci has some gfci characteristics but that they aren't sufficient to meet code but does the gfci have the proper protection to not install afci outlets, or am just trying to be too cheap" ​

Did the AHJ approve the "re-use" of the 2 wire ?.......Were any permits obtained for this project ?
Are there any adopted codes \ standards even "in-place" at this location ?
​

~ ~ ( ) ~ ~

 

[mwm1752]

To add to this knowledge base: I just got off the phone with the Seimens technical support and have verified that they do not have a product that provides both ACFI and GFCI protection. If you need to have them to protect a circuit (like I do in my San Francisco kitchen) you will have use separate devices. I'll have to have the GFCI at the outlet and ACFI at the breaker. The AFCI "Combination" breaker only addresses the various AFCI circumstances and will not trip during a GFCI test (verified by my last, failed, electrical inspection :-( ). There "may" be other products out there, but the technical engineer stated that it is not a simple function to include in a single breaker (he said it would be "impossible", but also qualified that he wasn't a genius) . So, don't be fooled by anyone stating that you can get this functionality in a single breaker without talking to a the manufacturer. You may be cutting holes in finished walls like I may have to now do.
--Joe

UL sent me a document from GFI/AFCI combo breaker made by SqD