art. 210.52 (E) (3)

[tim clark]

If you have a 36 inch man door exiting the garage of a single family dwelling and it as a patio that is 3 foot wide and 7 foot long that makes it 21 sq ft how do you get a outlet over the patio if there is no wall space just a door. Is that what art 210.52 e 3 is saying. Just don't get it. Am I reading it wrong.

 

[John120/240]

The receptacle doesn't necessarily have to be adjacent to the door. That is just a common spot to put one. I have always understood that a receptacle is required at the front & rear of the residence. I have been wrong before

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The receptacle doesn't necessarily have to be adjacent to the door. That is just a common spot to put one. I have always understood that a receptacle is required at the front & rear of the residence. I have been wrong before

John the nEC requires an outlet on every deck, balcony, or porch that has access from inside the dwelling and it must be inside the perimeter of the balcony, deck or porch


IMO if this area exits from the garage then a receptacle is not required as the garage is not a dwelling area. In this case I am assuming the patio is at grade but I would think a receptacle just outside the perimeter would be acceptable.

 

[tim clark]

210.52 e3

210.52 e3

Does it matter if the garage is part of the house.

 

[mgookin]

If you have a 36 inch man door exiting the garage of a single family dwelling and it as a patio that is 3 foot wide and 7 foot long that makes it 21 sq ft how do you get a outlet over the patio if there is no wall space just a door. Is that what art 210.52 e 3 is saying. Just don't get it. Am I reading it wrong.

Are you saying this "patio" is the width of the door and extends 7' from the building? That's not a patio; it's just a level landing which meets and exceeds the required 3' out min width of the door.

 

[ActionDave]

If you have a 36 inch man door exiting the garage of a single family dwelling and it as a patio that is 3 foot wide and 7 foot long that makes it 21 sq ft how do you get a outlet over the patio if there is no wall space just a door. Is that what art 210.52 e 3 is saying. Just don't get it. Am I reading it wrong.

You must be looking at the handbook commentary which is unenforceable and in this case just plain wrong since there is no mention of any minimum sq footage in the actual text.

 

[infinity]

You must be looking at the handbook commentary which is unenforceable and in this case just plain wrong since there is no mention of any minimum sq footage in the actual text.

The 2008 had an exception for porches, balconies and decks that are less than 20 sq ft.

210.52(3) Balconies, Decks, and Porches. Balconies, decks, and
porches that are accessible from inside the dwelling unit
shall have at least one receptacle outlet installed within the
perimeter of the balcony, deck, or porch. The receptacle
shall not be located more than 2.0 m (6 1 ? 2 ft) above the
balcony, deck, or porch surface.
Exception to (3): Balconies, decks, or porches with a us-
able area of less than 1.86 m 2 (20 ft 2 ) are not required to
have a receptacle installed.

Also I don't see a requirement for a receptacle on patio's.

 

[Smart $]

... Also I don't see a requirement for a receptacle on patio's.

I fail to understand how anyone can call a 3' x 7' area a patio... and one which the 3' end abuts the building sounds more like a walkway.

 

[infinity]

I fail to understand how anyone can call a 3' x 7' area a patio... and one which the 3' end abuts the building sounds more like a walkway.

I agree, the OP called it a patio but as mentioned it sounds more like a landing. Even if it is a patio I see no requirement for a receptacle.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

OP is on the 2011 code cycle in which case the sq. ft rule is gone. I can see where an inspector may call that area a patio- IMO it is not a patio and no receptacle is required.

I did a house that had a deck but the only access to this deck area was thru a screen porch. IMO that did not require a receptacle either because it did not have access from the dwelling.

 

[mwm1752]

If there are no limits on sq ft such as the case in the NEC 2011 where is the definition of patio vs landing vs walkway vs porch vs deck

 

[mwm1752]

I searched the 2011 ROC and it is confusing as I could not find the "accepted proposal" to eliminate the exception to NEC 2008 210.52(E)(3) --

 

[kwired]

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

If there are no limits on sq ft such as the case in the NEC 2011 where is the definition of patio vs landing vs walkway vs porch vs deck

Or even just a minimum width dimension. Many entrance doors have just a walkway, some only as narrow as maybe 30" some maybe just "stepping stones" out into the yard, and others maybe 8' wide but really don't have much of a space to call a deck or patio or whatever.

The front door at my house has concrete landing maybe about 4 foot x 4 foot right at the door then steps to an approaching sidewalk.
I did not put a receptacle at that landing space but still had one on front of the house (should have been 2002 code at the time it was built). But the real inspector (the wife) didn't let me get away with not having one near the front door and one was eventually installed a few years later as holiday displays are plugged into that one quite often.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

John the nEC requires an outlet on every deck, balcony, or porch that has access from inside the dwelling and it must be inside the perimeter of the balcony, deck or porch
...

That is no longer correct. There is a change for the 2014 code. It has to be accessible from the deck, balcony or porch, but that does not mean it has to be inside the perimeter of those locations. This was added to cover small balconies where the sliding glass door took up all of the width of the balcony and it was impossible to install a receptacle within the perimeter. While it was changed for that specific application, the change applies to all of the locations covered in the rule.

 

[kwired]

That is no longer correct. There is a change for the 2014 code. It has to be accessible from the deck, balcony or porch, but that does not mean it has to be inside the perimeter of those locations. This was added to cover small balconies where the sliding glass door took up all of the width of the balcony and it was impossible to install a receptacle within the perimeter. While it was changed for that specific application, the change applies to all of the locations covered in the rule.

Seems more logical than a floor receptacle for outdoor locations:happyyes: