Panel ratings for overseas work

[masonc]

We are working in an island with 230V 60Hz supply. While the older electrical equipment came from the UK, the newer equipment has been coming from the US.
My problem is with panel ratings. When we source a 3 phase panel from the US, I ask for a 415 voltage panel and breakers. That covers the 400v 3 phase voltage.
But when I want a single phase panel, all I can get is a 240v split phase panel, which, unless i am much mistaken, is only rated 120v line to neutral and comes with two hots. People are buying these and installing them, but to me this is very wrong.
If I ask for a 415 volt rated busbar and breakers, I get a 3 phase panel.

How can I source a panel that is 230V L-N rated and single input lug?

 

[petersonra]

We are working in an island with 230V 60Hz supply. While the older electrical equipment came from the UK, the newer equipment has been coming from the US.
My problem is with panel ratings. When we source a 3 phase panel from the US, I ask for a 415 voltage panel and breakers. That covers the 400v 3 phase voltage.
But when I want a single phase panel, all I can get is a 240v split phase panel, which, unless i am much mistaken, is only rated 120v line to neutral and comes with two hots. People are buying these and installing them, but to me this is very wrong.
If I ask for a 415 volt rated busbar and breakers, I get a 3 phase panel.

How can I source a panel that is 230V L-N rated and single input lug?

you need to ask for that specifically. 230V L-N is not used in the US. If you ask for 230 single phase you will get 230V 3 wire equipment.

 

[masonc]

I have asked for it specifically and got nowhere. Since the breakers are available, there must be a solution. Can I get a 277 L-N single phase panel?

 

[petersonra]

I have asked for it specifically and got nowhere. Since the breakers are available, there must be a solution. Can I get a 277 L-N single phase panel?

I don't see why you can't use a 480V panel and just put a single pole breaker in it.

When you say "ask for it", I am curious what you mean? is this in the P.O.?

If it is in the P.O. and you didn't get it why are you allowing the invoice to be paid?

 

[GoldDigger]

A single pole 480 breaker would cost a lot more, yes?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[Smart $]

A single pole 480 breaker would cost a lot more, yes?

A 1P 480V breaker, quite likely, and that is if you can even locate one.

But a 1P 277/480V breaker is about $25 when purchased individually at retail price.

 

[masonc]

Breakers are not the problem. We can order 415v rated breakers for our 3 phase panels. It is the panels I can't source. I guess the question is, if I use a 240V panel, is it really 240v rated or 120v to N rated?

 

[growler]

I don't see why you can't use a 480V panel and just put a single pole breaker in it.

They could do that but it would really depend on which code standard they are trying to wire to.

If they are trying to meet British Standard or BS 7671 it's going to get complicated with the RCD devices and all.

If you are dealing with British Standard it's better just to order the correct equipment to start with.

 

[petersonra]

I noticed that the OP did not answer my question about what is on the actual P.O.

The thing is that if you order off the shelf equipment from the US it will come made to US standards.

If you want something special it will cost extra and you will have to be very specific about what you actually want.

There are plenty of options available to provide a 230V L-N breaker on US sourced equipment. That might not be the entire problem. There are almost certainly other issues on US based equipment that do not meet whatever other standards there are where this stuff is going.

There just is no US standard for a 230V L-N 2 wire system.

 

[jim dungar]

Breakers are not the problem. We can order 415v rated breakers for our 3 phase panels. It is the panels I can't source. I guess the question is, if I use a 240V panel, is it really 240v rated or 120v to N rated?

Most inexpensive panels (e.g. residential load centers) will be rated for 120V L-N.

Many higher end and industrial panels will be rated for Grounded B-phase, these panels will have a 240V L-N rating. But, they will come with 2 'line' busbars and there will be no clean way to combine them (maybe a subfeed lug kit and a jumper).

 

[masonc]

I noticed that the OP did not answer my question about what is on the actual P.O.

I have requested from the supply house a 240v 2 wire panel with 240v single pole breakers. I know there are GE THQL-1-2-NN breakers rated for 240V.
Every single phase panel I have looked at in the GE catalog is 3 wire.

As far as code is concerned, the specifications require both NEC and "local code", but there really is no local code.

 

[petersonra]

I have requested from the supply house a 240v 2 wire panel with 240v single pole breakers. I know there are GE THQL-1-2-NN breakers rated for 240V.
Every single phase panel I have looked at in the GE catalog is 3 wire.

As far as code is concerned, the specifications require both NEC and "local code", but there really is no local code.

if there is no local code, what difference does it make? use the US stuff and wire it like it is intended to be used.

L do not believe that 230V L-N is an acceptable system under the NEC. See 250.20(B) (1)

 

[don_resqcapt19]

if there is no local code, what difference does it make? use the US stuff and wire it like it is intended to be used.

L do not believe that 230V L-N is an acceptable system under the NEC. See 250.20(B) (1)

I don't see how that prohibits a 230V L-N system. That section tells you what systems are required to be grounded, it does not act to prohibit other systems from being grounded.

 

[petersonra]

I don't see how that prohibits a 230V L-N system. That section tells you what systems are required to be grounded, it does not act to prohibit other systems from being grounded.

You may have a point there.

(1) Where the system can be grounded so that the maximum
voltage to ground on the ungrounded conductors
does not exceed 150 volts

So what you are saying seems to be that it has to be grounded because it could be grounded and end up with < 150V to ground, but it does not have to be grounded so it actually has < 150V to ground, but it does have to be grounded.

 

[Smart $]

You may have a point there.

(1) Where the system can be grounded so that the maximum
voltage to ground on the ungrounded conductors
does not exceed 150 volts

So what you are saying seems to be that it has to be grounded because it could be grounded and end up with < 150V to ground, but it does not have to be grounded so it actually has < 150V to ground, but it does have to be grounded.

That statement has my head spinning hmy:

My understanding of foreign 230V L-N systems is the neutral is grounded. Don't know whether it is required. The same system under NEC purview would not required to be grounded if it originates as a 1? system. If originating from a 3? 4W system per 250.20(B)(2) or (3), it would be required to be grounded.

 

[petersonra]

That statement has my head spinning hmy:

My understanding of foreign 230V L-N systems is the neutral is grounded. Don't know whether it is required. The same system under NEC purview would not required to be grounded if it originates as a 1? system. If originating from a 3? 4W system per 250.20(B)(2) or (3), it would be required to be grounded.

actually I think it is not really a L-N being discussed. Just a 2 wire 230V system with one of the lines grounded. There would not be an actual neutral in this kind of system.

or it could be one line of a 400V 3 phase system. that would be 230V to actual N, but the poster suggested it was not a 415V 3 phase system at issue here WRT to the 230V CB.

 

[GoldDigger]

actually I think it is not really a L-N being discussed. Just a 2 wire 230V system with one of the lines grounded. There would not be an actual neutral in this kind of system.

or it could be one line of a 400V 3 phase system. that would be 230V to actual N, but the poster suggested it was not a 415V 3 phase system at issue here WRT to the 230V CB.

:thumbsup:
I would say that if the service is one phase, there is no neutral even if the primary of the service transformer is one phase of a three phase distribution system.

 

[Smart $]

actually I think it is not really a L-N being discussed. Just a 2 wire 230V system with one of the lines grounded. There would not be an actual neutral in this kind of system.

or it could be one line of a 400V 3 phase system. that would be 230V to actual N, but the poster suggested it was not a 415V 3 phase system at issue here WRT to the 230V CB.

:thumbsup:
I would say that if the service is one phase, there is no neutral even if the primary of the service transformer is one phase of a three phase distribution system.

Perhaps, but let's not get into semantics about what is and isn't a neutral. I don't believe poster actually stated the supply did not originate from a 415V 3? 4W grounded wye system.

Additionally, AFAIK the only panels made in/for US having only one line bus and one grounded bus are column-width panels... just don't know of any rated for 230V line bus to grounded bus.

 

[PetrosA]

Why are you guys thinking there wouldn't be a neutral? Almost every apartment and most homes in Europe and many other countries have a single hot and neutral feed. I don't get why a country with a distribution system like that would want to use US made electrical gear for it. Crazy.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

You may have a point there.

(1) Where the system can be grounded so that the maximum
voltage to ground on the ungrounded conductors
does not exceed 150 volts

So what you are saying seems to be that it has to be grounded because it could be grounded and end up with < 150V to ground, but it does not have to be grounded so it actually has < 150V to ground, but it does have to be grounded.

Think of corner grounded delta systems. The are systems that are not required to be grounded, but the code does not prohibit grounding them. They will have 240 or 480 volts to ground.