I'll be working on a project where the client will be combining two apartments into one. Currently, each apartment is served by a main lug 200A load center and each load center is powered from a meter w/breaker in a meter array located in the basement electrical room. My question is can the combined apartment be powered from two feeders with two meters? I've check articles 215 and 230 but there is no mention how many feeders an apartment can be served with. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Two Feeders Serving One Apartment
- Thread starter Allied
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jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I want to say 230.2, but OP says feeders, not SECs - so I am not sure this would apply. IDK...:?
James S.
Senior Member
- Location
- Mesa, Arizona
I was in a similar situation a year ago...found another way around it but would love to know the answer to this as well.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
You can have as many feeders as you want. I see no problem. If this was a separate structure, than it is a different story.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Only concern I would have (not regulatory) is that the meters, etc. in the basement be clearly marked showing that two feed that apartment and to remove power from the apartment both need to be opened.
RLyons
Senior Member
- Location
- Changed for anonymity
Just asking questions here...is each meter fed with its own 4/0 service drops?
If yes, allowed by the code?!
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Service. The conductors and equipment for delivering electric
energy from the serving utility to the wiring system of
the premises served.
230.72 Grouping of Disconnects.
(A) General. The two to six disconnects as permitted in
230.71 shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be marked
to indicate the load served.
Table 310.15(B)(7) Conductor Types and Sizes for
120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and
Feeders. Conductor Types RHH, RHW, RHW-2, THHN,
THHW, THW, THW-2, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW,
XHHW-2, SE, USE, USE-2
Dennis' smoke detector post comes to mind. All the smoke would have to be out of only one panel.
On its face it sounds doable.
energy from the serving utility to the wiring system of
the premises served.
230.72 Grouping of Disconnects.
(A) General. The two to six disconnects as permitted in
230.71 shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be marked
to indicate the load served.
Table 310.15(B)(7) Conductor Types and Sizes for
120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and
Feeders. Conductor Types RHH, RHW, RHW-2, THHN,
THHW, THW, THW-2, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW,
XHHW-2, SE, USE, USE-2
Dennis' smoke detector post comes to mind. All the smoke would have to be out of only one panel.
On its face it sounds doable.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
i am assuming by the description in the OP, specifically the use of the term "meter array" that that is not the case. More likely to be one service drop with multiple sets of service entrance conductors than two service drops if not a factory multi meter assembly, but anything is possible.
jxofaltrds, good point about 310.15(B)(7) if that table were utilized for sizing on the original setup. If the conductors were aluminum, he could likely still stick with the current wire and breaker sizes by using the next size up rule. I dont see that any of the other concerns in Dennis' post would apply here.
Greg1707
Senior Member
- Location
- Alexandria, VA
- Occupation
- Business owner Electrical contractor
combined condos
combined condos
I have dealt with this situation frequently where two adjacent condos are purchased and combined. I some case the owner retains two meters. This, however, incurs an additional expense since around here there is a minimum monthly fee ($15?) added on top of the monthly usage. In other cases we have spliced the two feeders together within the meter bank so that one meter serves both condos. The POCO installs a blank cover over the unused meter. This method eliminates the additional monthly charge.
combined condos
I have dealt with this situation frequently where two adjacent condos are purchased and combined. I some case the owner retains two meters. This, however, incurs an additional expense since around here there is a minimum monthly fee ($15?) added on top of the monthly usage. In other cases we have spliced the two feeders together within the meter bank so that one meter serves both condos. The POCO installs a blank cover over the unused meter. This method eliminates the additional monthly charge.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
How do you handle:
230.70 General. Means shall be provided to disconnect all
conductors in a building or other structure from the service entrance
conductors.
Would two separate 'main' panel inside = means (plural)? In this example.
230.72 Grouping of Disconnects.
(A) General. The two to six disconnects as permitted in
230.71 shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be marked
to indicate the load served.
230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General. The service disconnecting means for each service
permitted by 230.2,
230.2 Number of Services. A building or other structure
served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted
in 230.2(A) through (D).
(C) Capacity Requirements. Additional services shall be
permitted under any of the following:
(3) By special permission
So would two disconnects be required outside or could you have them both inside and seperated in the above combined condo example?
Greg1707
Senior Member
- Location
- Alexandria, VA
- Occupation
- Business owner Electrical contractor
The meter bank has a main breaker for each meter. The conductors servicing the two panels are feeders. When the two feeders are combined the one main breaker at the meter disconnects both panels.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Exactly what I was going to suggest to the OP - as long as the load calculations and conductors sizes allow for it. When you combine two dwellings into one, you need to re-evaluate your load calculations anyway, and will find that you probably no longer have two kitchens so there is likely less SABC's, less dishwashers, disposers, ranges, etc. if there were two laundry areas before, there likely is only one after the changes. Many times doubling the two together works out just fine, and you really only have one feeder when done that happens to suppy two panels.
All sections you quoted are irrelevant, we are not talking about services we are talking about feeders.
lrwicksey
New User
- Location
- Independence, MO USA
Safety factor
Safety factor
The key reason in opposition of 2 meters is the increased chance of cross feeding circuits. Extension cord could originate from different meters and there is a possibility of someone who doesn't know what they are doing creating a very hazardous situation. I would only allow it if you can ensure that branch circuits are isolated to different areas to prevent cross back feeds or shorts between the differently derived systems. Smoke detectors could be the greatest threat as they would probably be required to be interconnected and they may cross the determined path of branch circuit separation.
Safety factor
The key reason in opposition of 2 meters is the increased chance of cross feeding circuits. Extension cord could originate from different meters and there is a possibility of someone who doesn't know what they are doing creating a very hazardous situation. I would only allow it if you can ensure that branch circuits are isolated to different areas to prevent cross back feeds or shorts between the differently derived systems. Smoke detectors could be the greatest threat as they would probably be required to be interconnected and they may cross the determined path of branch circuit separation.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
I think you would have a hard time coming up with scenario that creates a dangerous situation. You would still have the same potential potential
)) between any conductors. Backfeeding, double feeding, or stealing a neutral can just as easily occur by a brother in law modifying this system as a system supplied by one feeder. By the same reasoning, you should not install a "sub-panel" ever then. FWIW, as described in the OP, these feeders are not separately derived.- Status