Tamper Resistant Outlets

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copper chopper

Senior Member
Location
wisconsin
An apprentice asked me today why we always put tamper resistant outlets in the hallways and waiting rooms in the hospital? I cant find a code saying that we have to, is there a building code or something or is it just a good idea. There always on the blueprints this way. If you know of any codes please tell me.:?
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
The only areas in hospitals required by the NEC to have tamper resistant receptacles are found in 517.18(C). It may be as you suspect and is a local code requirement.

Roger
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
An apprentice asked me today why we always put tamper resistant outlets in the hallways and waiting rooms in the hospital? I cant find a code saying that we have to, is there a building code or something or is it just a good idea. There always on the blueprints this way. If you know of any codes please tell me.:?

The NEC is not meant to be a design manual. It is a set of legal minimums. The architect or design engineer for that project decided to use them, thus their presence on the prints. There is nothing wrong with exceeding the safety standards of the NEC when designing a project.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
why we always put tamper resistant outlets

Why: because the mfg of TR outlets run the NEC boards.

Recently wired an 800 sq ft outbuilding behind the house for a relative for a woodshop. Table saw, drill press, snader, planer, etc....lots of power tools, kinda dumb to think there would be kids crawling around on the floor there with no supervision?

WA state NEC rendition says anything associated with a dwelling needs TR for anything less than 64" high or above a counter.

So, pulled all the 20A spec grade outlets, threw in some cheap TR outlets, got inspection signed off, then replaced the cheap TR with the good outlets - keep the TR for the next time, eh. To me, higher risk having a low grade contact in the outlet than not having shutters!

Did a bit of research. TR proponents cited 12 kids a year electrocuted, (probably all from non GFCI, statistics did not say). Also cited 'minimal cost' of $70 differential for a new house (probably based on the big box cheap outlets, not spec grade upgrades).

There were roughly 1 million housing starts in USA in 2013, so that is $70 million extra into mfg pockets, or almost a cost of $6 million per child "saved".
Methinks that $70 million could easily 'protect more children' by being used more wisely in home construction than to line the pockets of mfg?
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
why we always put tamper resistant outlets

Why: because the mfg of TR outlets run the NEC boards.

Recently wired an 800 sq ft outbuilding behind the house for a relative for a woodshop. Table saw, drill press, snader, planer, etc....lots of power tools, kinda dumb to think there would be kids crawling around on the floor there with no supervision?

WA state NEC rendition says anything associated with a dwelling needs TR for anything less than 64" high or above a counter.

So, pulled all the 20A spec grade outlets, threw in some cheap TR outlets, got inspection signed off, then replaced the cheap TR with the good outlets - keep the TR for the next time, eh. To me, higher risk having a low grade contact in the outlet than not having shutters!

Did a bit of research. TR proponents cited 12 kids a year electrocuted, (probably all from non GFCI, statistics did not say). Also cited 'minimal cost' of $70 differential for a new house (probably based on the big box cheap outlets, not spec grade upgrades).

There were roughly 1 million housing starts in USA in 2013, so that is $70 million extra into mfg pockets, or almost a cost of $6 million per child "saved".
Methinks that $70 million could easily 'protect more children' by being used more wisely in home construction than to line the pockets of mfg?

And an outbuilding is associated with a dwelling how?
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
And an outbuilding is associated with a dwelling how?

Well, they walk out the back door, along about 35 feet of sidewalk, and walk into a separate building. House is on an acre or more it looked like. Visualize a big detached garage, eh?
 

Timbert

Member
Location
Makawao, Hawaii
Playing Devil's Advocate here.

Recently wired an 800 sq ft outbuilding behind the house for a relative for a woodshop. Table saw, drill press, snader, planer, etc....lots of power tools, kinda dumb to think there would be kids crawling around on the floor there with no supervision?
So, what happens when your relative sells the house and the new owner thinks it would be a perfect playhouse for the kids?

Did a bit of research. TR proponents cited 12 kids a year electrocuted, (probably all from non GFCI, statistics did not say). Also cited 'minimal cost' of $70 differential for a new house (probably based on the big box cheap outlets, not spec grade upgrades).

There were roughly 1 million housing starts in USA in 2013, so that is $70 million extra into mfg pockets, or almost a cost of $6 million per child "saved".
Methinks that $70 million could easily 'protect more children' by being used more wisely in home construction than to line the pockets of mfg?
So, what is the correct price to put on a child's life?

What use would be more wise? Isn't someone gonna profit off of that use as well?

And no I don't work for a receptacle manufacturer. :) I do work on a lot of safety issues and these kinds of arguments come up all the time, that people need to be responsible (they do), we can't make it completely safe (we can't), or it costs too much (how much is too much?). But there is usually very little consensus on what is "safe enough." I'm sure that a parent who has lost a child would argue much differently than you or I would.
 
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JDBrown

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I know this wasn't aimed at me, and that you're just playing Devil's Advocate, but I'm gonna answer anyway. :p

Playing Devil's Advocate here.

So, what happens when your relative sells the house and the new owner thinks it would be a perfect playhouse for the kids?
Then the new owner should take responsibility for his own kids' safety and install tamper-resistant receptacles. This is no different from the argument we sometimes hear regarding things like show window receptacles. You know:

"This is a dentist's office; we won't have any advertising in the front window."
"But what happens when you move out and the next owner/tenant is a clothing store?"
"Then they can install the show window circuit."

Or, perhaps a more relevant example: If I'm building a new house, do I have to have a receptacle every 12 ft. in my attached garage because the next owner might decide to turn it into a bedroom for his teenager?

The current owner can't be held responsible for what a future owner might do.

So, what is the correct price to put on a child's life?
This one made me chuckle, because it reminded me of an old episode of The Simpsons. "Will somebody please think of the children?!"

There are about 21 million children under age 5 in the US. I know it sounds harsh, but 12 out of 21 million is not statistically significant. Now, that being said, we all know that you can't put a price on any child's life. But there are lots of things that could save the lives of more than 12 children a year, but we choose not to do them because they've been deemed too expensive, impractical or inconvenient. And I think I'll stop there before I slip into political territory. :D

What use would be more wise? Isn't someone gonna profit off of that use as well?
I have no problem with companies making a profit. It just irritates me that they're legally requiring something that's harder to use* and costs more money, while having an almost negligible (statistically speaking) effect on safety. I'd be perfectly happy with TR receptacles being available as a safety upgrade but not required by law (as in the case of the hospital corridors mentioned in the OP). Then I could decide to put them in my 2-year-old's bedroom, but not behind my entertainment center.

*I'm basing "harder to use" on anecdotal evidence from people I know who have TR receptacles in their homes. I don't have them, as my house is twenty-something years old. But the complaints I always hear are: (1) Even if you have your plug lined up perfectly, you have to push really hard to get it to go in; and (2) The little tamper resistant doors don't last long anyway before a plug snaps them off. Now, maybe everybody I know has the cheapest ones available, and more expensive ones would work better; I don't know.

And no I don't work for a receptacle manufacturer. :) I do work on a lot of safety issues and these kinds of arguments come up all the time, that people need to be responsible (they do), we can't make it completely safe (we can't), or it costs too much (how much is too much?). But there is usually very little consensus on what is "safe enough." I'm sure that a parent who has lost a child would argue much differently than you or I would.
Can't disagree with you here (I have a feeling this is the part where you stopped playing Devil's Advocate). Unfortunately, the more I think about this issue, the more political it becomes in my mind, and I don't want to go there (plus it's not allowed). It's a question of where the line is between the government's responsibility to protect public safety, and the individual's right to decide what's best for himself and his family. And I don't think we're ever going to find a consensus on that issue.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
for arguments sake:

think about it.....
sitting here with a "assy in mexico" TR outlet, no brand name directly on the outlet, a Lowes 89 cent special POS.
...also have 2 paper clips to verify the following.

1. anything near a ground should be GFCI anyway, correct? Given that code jurisdictions that specify TR outlets already has GFCI required in any shock to ground hazard area. So, I go to the kitchen, grab ahold of the sink, stick paperclip into the outlet, KACHUNK, even in the next room hear the GFCI breaker pop open. No harm done.

2. Child inserts paperclip into hot side of GFCI, say he/she sitting on an air duct, GFCI trips, no harm to child.

3. So, how does a child get a fatal shock -- hmmm... trying to stick a paperclip into a TR outlet, cannot do it. Being a kid, he gets another paperclip, one in each hand and shoves them in, probably trying a few times until he/she pushes at the same time and paperclips go in.

4. NOW, child has hand to hand shock and is shaking and cannot let go and the paper clip are stuck in the TR outlet window, current goes right thru their little heart which fibrillates and the kid dies -- if his hand are wet from slobber or whatever; if dry, he gets a nice surprise and wont do that again.


Conclusion:
TR outlets are MORE OF AN ELECTROCUTION HAZARD FOR KIDS THAN NON-TAMPER GFCI OUTLETS!!!

CORROLARY: Even a non-GFCI outlet, kid has to be on a ground or sink, etc. Now we get into probabilities, but it could be argued that a TR outlet is statistically MORE OF A HAZARD THAN ANY REGULAR OUTLET

So, say we as a society decide to spend $6 million per child 'saved' (note the ' ').
Bringing back DDT for well controlled use in malaria areas would be a much better use of the money, eh?
Or, a very contentious observation, expand charter schools to reduce teen gang violence and murders.
etc.....
 

Timbert

Member
Location
Makawao, Hawaii
I know this wasn't aimed at me, and that you're just playing Devil's Advocate, but I'm gonna answer anyway. :p
That's fine, it was meant to stimulate dialog. And I have to agree with you, it is difficult when discussing this not to slip into political philosophies.

Everyone of us has some point when it comes to the NEC (or other code enforcement) where we go from "Yeah. That's a common sense requirement." to "What? That's the silliest thing I've heard."
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
BTW, will have great-grandchildren in the near future, will NOT have any TR outlets where they are (yes, grandkids do defer to grandpa's opinion in some things <G>).

more discussion:

When our grandkids were little and came over every week, DW used the little plastic '20 for a dollar' outlet inserts.

An alternative to the present TR outlets would be the UK type outlets - ground prong (or non conductive substitute prong) need to be in ahead of the live prongs and ground prong closes an internal switch.

OR, change the NEC to not allow any outlets lower than say 5 feet (NO cost!) - interior decorators would howl probably, but a better solution for safety for kids. - getting old and not liking to bend over, us old farts LIKE high outlets.

The IRC (residential building code) is debating changing the lowest allowable widow sill up from 2 feet to 3 feet, kids can fall out of window you know, so why not have ALL outlets to high for the little tykes to reach.
 

copper chopper

Senior Member
Location
wisconsin
then riddle me this

then riddle me this

if your consensus is correct junkhound then why do they make tamper resistant gfci outlets? (may be just to sell them)
 

Ragin Cajun

Senior Member
Location
Upstate S.C.
Reality is there is not such thing as "zero risk"! Getting out of bed is a risk. If you really want a high risk, go driving in the car. Oops, now they will want to ban driving! Rant off: RC
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
BTW, will have great-grandchildren in the near future, will NOT have any TR outlets where they are (yes, grandkids do defer to grandpa's opinion in some things <G>).

more discussion:

When our grandkids were little and came over every week, DW used the little plastic '20 for a dollar' outlet inserts.

An alternative to the present TR outlets would be the UK type outlets - ground prong (or non conductive substitute prong) need to be in ahead of the live prongs and ground prong closes an internal switch.

OR, change the NEC to not allow any outlets lower than say 5 feet (NO cost!) - interior decorators would howl probably, but a better solution for safety for kids. - getting old and not liking to bend over, us old farts LIKE high outlets.

The IRC (residential building code) is debating changing the lowest allowable widow sill up from 2 feet to 3 feet, kids can fall out of window you know, so why not have ALL outlets to high for the little tykes to reach.
Well if you had to make the lowest allowable sill 3 feet, what is justification that a kid can't fall out of the 3 foot high window? Put some furniture too close, pull up a chair or a toy to climb on and they can still have easy access. No window at all, or one that will not open - now we don't have proper emergency egress:eek:hmy:

if your consensus is correct junkhound then why do they make tamper resistant gfci outlets? (may be just to sell them)
AFCI is bigger rip off to consumers than TR:happyyes:

And lets not forget that 6 million in sales of TR receptacles is not 6 million in extra profit for the manufacturers. Receptacles would have been sold anyway if not needing to be TR type, so you need to deduct the amount otherwise would have been spent, plus that 6 million gets split up between manufacturers, distributors, final retailers, etc. and is not all going directly to the manufacturer.

Do they make more because of the requirements - probably, but likely not as much as perceived.

And how can you put a price tag on any individuals life?

If you don't like the design of the TR receptacles and claim they are not safe, you sure are welcome to design something that is and get it adopted into code and make all the royalties off of your invention.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
And how can you put a price tag on any individuals life?


As a society we put a price tage on human life all the time. We just get a bit squeamish when we have to face up to this fact of life.

We know that a certain number of people are going to die in all sorts of different situations and the cost is weighed against the benefits.

People like the warm and fuzzy fealing of doing something about safety but do you know anyone that actually drives around at the posted speed limit ( all the time)?

The manufacturers were able to promote the idea that T/R receptacles were a much safer idea and I'm going to install as many as I can for money. But really I go into homes all the time where there are missing cover plates and a child can stick his hand into the junction box. I see kids playing in the streets all the time and that can't be safe.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
As a society we put a price tage on human life all the time. We just get a bit squeamish when we have to face up to this fact of life.

We know that a certain number of people are going to die in all sorts of different situations and the cost is weighed against the benefits.

People like the warm and fuzzy fealing of doing something about safety but do you know anyone that actually drives around at the posted speed limit ( all the time)?

The manufacturers were able to promote the idea that T/R receptacles were a much safer idea and I'm going to install as many as I can for money. But really I go into homes all the time where there are missing cover plates and a child can stick his hand into the junction box. I see kids playing in the streets all the time and that can't be safe.
And anyone that loses a loved one to something that maybe/could have been easily avoided by the use of some safety device will not agree with society in general on that particular topic of discussion.

Driving at speed limit or "going with the flow" even if it is not the speed limit (above or below speed limit) is worth serious consideration as well.

Kids playing in the streets - probably not safe. Though we did it all the time, but there is also a difference in playing on the street in a residential neighborhood on a street that sees little traffic compared to playing on a main traffic area that constantly is occupied with vehicles most times of the day.

I myself kind of think it is overstepping a little by requiring TR receptacles, but don't know how many lives have to be saved in order justify making it a requirement.

Some people should be prohibited from reproducing - that alone could save many lives:angel:
 
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