Generator Time Delay Problem or Caveat Emptor?

[JoeStillman]

A contractor offered a 22 kW generator on one of my design projects. A cut sheet was forwarded showing the right kW and voltage and we did not take exception to it. Nothing on the generator cut sheet revealed that the generator was not suitable for legally required emergency lighting, which is what our Single Line showed it feeding.

The generator gets installed but it won't pass inspection. It seems that it has a built-in programmable time-delay-on-start. The minimum setting is 10 seconds. Zero time delay is not a programming option. The manufacturer informs me that this cannot be disabled, although they can't tell me any reason why. They offered to refer me to one of their commercial and industrial distributors who would help us buy another of their fine generators that would be able to pass inspection.

Why would anyone sell a generator that is intentionally crippled like this? Is their some technical reason I am not aware of that makes it necessary to wait longer than the code-minimum time period? I suspect that my client is getting hosed because the manufacturer segregates its distributors by arbitrarily making a product that won't meet code. Can someone help me keep an open mind here? I feel the sensation of smoke entering the improper orifice.

Thanks.

 

[texie]

A contractor offered a 22 kW generator on one of my design projects. A cut sheet was forwarded showing the right kW and voltage and we did not take exception to it. Nothing on the generator cut sheet revealed that the generator was not suitable for legally required emergency lighting, which is what our Single Line showed it feeding.

The generator gets installed but it won't pass inspection. It seems that it has a built-in programmable time-delay-on-start. The minimum setting is 10 seconds. Zero time delay is not a programming option. The manufacturer informs me that this cannot be disabled, although they can't tell me any reason why. They offered to refer me to one of their commercial and industrial distributors who would help us buy another of their fine generators that would be able to pass inspection.

Why would anyone sell a generator that is intentionally crippled like this? Is their some technical reason I am not aware of that makes it necessary to wait longer than the code-minimum time period? I suspect that my client is getting hosed because the manufacturer segregates its distributors by arbitrarily making a product that won't meet code. Can someone help me keep an open mind here? I feel the sensation of smoke entering the improper orifice.

Thanks.

I've had this happen on a job as well. Sounds like the EC thought 22 KW is 22kw, not realizing that there is a big difference between a residential grade machine and one that has to comply with NFPA 110. I'll bet there is information in the specs or manual of the machine he proposed that warns that it is not 110 compliant. And it won't be compliant with 110 for more reasons than just the time delay.

 

[ceb58]

A contractor offered a 22 kW generator on one of my design projects. A cut sheet was forwarded showing the right kW and voltage and we did not take exception to it. Nothing on the generator cut sheet revealed that the generator was not suitable for legally required emergency lighting, which is what our Single Line showed it feeding.

The generator gets installed but it won't pass inspection. It seems that it has a built-in programmable time-delay-on-start. The minimum setting is 10 seconds. Zero time delay is not a programming option. The manufacturer informs me that this cannot be disabled, although they can't tell me any reason why. They offered to refer me to one of their commercial and industrial distributors who would help us buy another of their fine generators that would be able to pass inspection.

Why would anyone sell a generator that is intentionally crippled like this? Is their some technical reason I am not aware of that makes it necessary to wait longer than the code-minimum time period? I suspect that my client is getting hosed because the manufacturer segregates its distributors by arbitrarily making a product that won't meet code. Can someone help me keep an open mind here? I feel the sensation of smoke entering the improper orifice.

Thanks.

legally required

Is it truly a legally required system ( Art. 701 ) or emergency ( Art. 700 )? If it is a legally required system then it is required to produce within 60 sec. 701.12
As far as some one selling a generator that has a utility drop out setting. That is to prevent nuisance starts for power blinks. Bottom line is some one just did not speck out the correct equipment for the application.

 

[ATSman]

A contractor offered a 22 kW generator on one of my design projects. A cut sheet was forwarded showing the right kW and voltage and we did not take exception to it. Nothing on the generator cut sheet revealed that the generator was not suitable for legally required emergency lighting, which is what our Single Line showed it feeding.

The generator gets installed but it won't pass inspection. It seems that it has a built-in programmable time-delay-on-start. The minimum setting is 10 seconds. Zero time delay is not a programming option. The manufacturer informs me that this cannot be disabled, although they can't tell me any reason why. They offered to refer me to one of their commercial and industrial distributors who would help us buy another of their fine generators that would be able to pass inspection.

Why would anyone sell a generator that is intentionally crippled like this? Is their some technical reason I am not aware of that makes it necessary to wait longer than the code-minimum time period? I suspect that my client is getting hosed because the manufacturer segregates its distributors by arbitrarily making a product that won't meet code. Can someone help me keep an open mind here? I feel the sensation of smoke entering the improper orifice.

Thanks.

Normally the engine start delay is controlled by the ATS microprocessor controller. Is the ATS built into the genset enclosure or is it stand-alone?
With out knowing the brand of generator and the specifics I will not speculate but it sounds like the guy is blowing smoke. Even if this time setting is not user accessible there is always a factory level menu where this time can be changed. And this goes for all the manufacturers out there. Now if it is a speed adjustment to change the frequency then that's another story. Some man. require an add-on package to do this, but a simple time delay change....?!?!? never heard of it :happysad:

 

[JoeStillman]

It's not a legally required generator, but the emergency lights are required by the building code. It's an Article 700 Emergency Generator.

I didn't have my usual spec book because it was added to the job as a change order. Otherwise there would have been no question.

I was told by the factory that this time delay can not be eliminated or adjusted lower than 10 seconds. It also has a 5 second warm up delay, which would be acceptable if the time delay on start was more like 2 seconds.

I really feel like it is deliberately crippled in order to prevent overlap in the manufacturer's marketing channels (and they have a LOT of channels - seems like every contractor I meet tells me he's one of their dealers. ) I can neither confirm, nor deny, that their name rhymes with "maniac".

 

[JoeStillman]

I've had this happen on a job as well. Sounds like the EC thought 22 KW is 22kw, not realizing that there is a big difference between a residential grade machine and one that has to comply with NFPA 110. I'll bet there is information in the specs or manual of the machine he proposed that warns that it is not 110 compliant. And it won't be compliant with 110 for more reasons than just the time delay.

The info that they gave me didn't say anything about not being 110 compliant. Frankly, I didn't know there were any US manufacturers who aren't. These guys make big generators too. I even toured their factory once.

 

[texie]

The info that they gave me didn't say anything about not being 110 compliant. Frankly, I didn't know there were any US manufacturers who aren't. These guys make big generators too. I even toured their factory once.

I can guess who the manufacturer is. You mention that this is for emergency lighting, so as you said, this is an Art. 700 system. The key here is "system". That includes all the requirements of NFPA 110 that apply to Art. 700. This would include the ATS and annunciation among other things.

I think you should consider that the market for these smaller gensets has grown immensely in recent years for Art. 702 applications and as a result that has led to machines that the primary focus is price. The result is a design philosophy that does not lend itself to compliance with NFPA 110, such as controls that are imbedded in the genset as opposed to the industry norm of the ATS.

In fairness to the manufactures, I think types of these machines have their place, but not for this application. All the well known names are in this market now as that is were the numbers are.

On a side note, I used to live in West Chester. Been more years ago than I care to admit though. Still have a cousin in Kennett Square.