Soldered Splice Integrity

[mwr]

Please help me settle a debate..... when you find twisted, soldered and taped splices in the field do you remake the splice, retape or apply a wirenut to the splice?

Obviously we are talking old installations here, do you think the these types of connections are still sound 50 years later?

FWIW I have been leaving the soldered splices in place and just putting a wirenut on them, however, I am questioning that practice because of 110.3(B) which has me worried that my wirenuts are a code violation.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Please help me settle a debate..... when you find twisted, soldered and taped splices in the field do you remake the splice, retape or apply a wirenut to the splice?

Obviously we are talking old installations here, do you think the these types of connections are still sound 50 years later?

FWIW I have been leaving the soldered splices in place and just putting a wirenut on them, however, I am questioning that practice because of 110.3(B) which has me worried that my wirenuts are a code violation.

a wirenut for insulation should work quite well......

 

[RichB]

If you are worried just apply a wire nut for insulation purposes--a properly done solder splice is absolutely fine--I have come across splices done in the late 30's and early 40's on old US Naval vessels that were just fine.

 

[mwr]

I guess you both missed my question in regards to 110.3B and wirenuts.

 

[junkhound]

I guess you both missed my question in regards to 110.3B and wirenuts.

As long as the combo of wires that are soldered together is in the 'listed' chart for the wire nut used, compliant.

Of course, there are 'retentive' inspectors out there - e.g. some who insist on only green nuts on grounds, etc..

 

[Lectricbota]

As long as the combo of wires that are soldered together is in the 'listed' chart for the wire nut used, compliant.

Of course, there are 'retentive' inspectors out there - e.g. some who insist on only green nuts on grounds, etc..

Has that ever been in the NEC ?

 

[kwired]

Please help me settle a debate..... when you find twisted, soldered and taped splices in the field do you remake the splice, retape or apply a wirenut to the splice?

Obviously we are talking old installations here, do you think the these types of connections are still sound 50 years later?

FWIW I have been leaving the soldered splices in place and just putting a wirenut on them, however, I am questioning that practice because of 110.3(B) which has me worried that my wirenuts are a code violation.

A properly made up splice that uses solder is supposed to be mechanically connected (usually twisting) before the soldering is done. I don't give those connections much thought as being a bad splice or much risk of becoming bad splices, so in general I am not remaking that splice unless I had some good reason to disturb it in the first place.

 

[mwr]

So its imperative to use nuts rated for aluminum wire (a different alloy than copper) but the solder is OK? Im still kinda confused.

 

[ActionDave]

So its imperative to use nuts rated for aluminum wire (a different alloy than copper) but the solder is OK? Im still kinda confused.

Solder is not AL and does not follow any of the rules for AL if that is what you are getting at.

Whenever I am messing with old soldered connections I leave them alone as much as I can, add some tape if I need to. When I have to get into them, adding a wire for instance, I will cut away the soldered connection and strip before I add a wire nut.

 

[mwr]

Solder is not AL and does not follow any of the rules for AL if that is what you are getting at.

.

I know solder isn't alum. I should have rephrased my comparison since your missing my point. If you cant use standard wirenuts with alum. a different alloy than copper than why is it not in violation to be using standard wirenuts with soldered connections which is also a different alloy?

Is it because the wirenut applied to a solder connection would be for insulation purposes only since its already mechanically and electrically joined with a twist and then soldered. If that is the case, then a soldered connection, twisted, soldered and wirenutted would be 3 times as strong no?

 

[ActionDave]

I know solder isn't alum. I should have rephrased my comparison since your missing my point. If you cant use standard wirenuts with alum. a different alloy than copper than why is it not in violation to be using standard wirenuts with soldered connections which is also a different alloy?

Is it because the wirenut applied to a solder connection would be for insulation purposes only since its already mechanically and electrically joined with a twist and then soldered. If that is the case, then a soldered connection, twisted, soldered and wirenutted would be 3 times as strong no?

I think it is because the solder is fused to the Cu, so yes the wire nut is only insulation. A proper solder connection is as strong as one could hope for, emphasis on proper, so I don't think the wire nut makes it any stronger.


You also have to add in the bad reputation with anything to do with AL wiring, (the old 10 and 12AWG) few manufactures want to have anything they make anywhere near it.

 

[GoldDigger]

Two major differences:
1. The expansion coefficient of solder is closer to that of copper than aluminum's is. And it helps that the solder makes up a small part of the combined volume of the joint and is bonded to the copper.
2. Much more importantly, aluminum is different in that it rapidly forms a durable insulating oxide coating. Copper oxide (and oxides of solder alloys) on the other hand is easily mechanically disrupted and also breaks down at a very low voltage.

Tapatalk!

 

[kwired]

I know solder isn't alum. I should have rephrased my comparison since your missing my point. If you cant use standard wirenuts with alum. a different alloy than copper than why is it not in violation to be using standard wirenuts with soldered connections which is also a different alloy?

Is it because the wirenut applied to a solder connection would be for insulation purposes only since its already mechanically and electrically joined with a twist and then soldered. If that is the case, then a soldered connection, twisted, soldered and wirenutted would be 3 times as strong no?

The aluminum expands and contracts at much faster rate than copper is main reason connections designed for copper only are not suitable for use with aluminum. That doesn't mean they would be suitable for use with the solder which solder used for electrical connections generally used to be 60% tin 40% lead, but lead seems to be a dirty word these days, so you see lead free solder being used that contains tin, copper, silver, bismuth, indium, zinc, antimony, and traces of other metals, they just are not necessarily tested to be used with those metals and may perform very well in connection devices designed for copper. Rate of expansion just like for aluminum conductors is likely the biggest factor in how well they will work, plus aluminum oxide is not a very good conductor at all where many of those other metals conduct pretty well even with oxidation.

 

[mwr]

The aluminum expands and contracts at much faster rate than copper is main reason connections designed for copper only are not suitable for use with aluminum. That doesn't mean they would be suitable for use with the solder .

"That doesn't mean" you meant to say that means they would be suitable for use with copper... just clarifying, because of all the confusion at work about this and this might help clarify it to the boss.

 

[kwired]

"That doesn't mean" you meant to say that means they would be suitable for use with copper... just clarifying, because of all the confusion at work about this and this might help clarify it to the boss.

What I was getting at was they likely were not examined for use with the tin/lead alloy that composes the solder, but if they were they possibly may be acceptable. AFAIK they was examined for use with aluminum and were determined to not be acceptable, which is the reason why we have a different type that is intended for use with aluminum.