License requirements

[Jim Lenardson]

Hi. I'm a master electrician working in industrial machine maintenance. My understanding of the code has always been that anyone working within an energized machine panel must be licensed by the state as an apprentice, journeyman or master electrician. No other unqualified individuals are allowed in the area. Am I wrong in my interpretation?

 

[brother]

Hi. I'm a master electrician working in industrial machine maintenance. My understanding of the code has always been that anyone working within an energized machine panel must be licensed by the state as an apprentice, journeyman or master electrician. No other unqualified individuals are allowed in the area. Am I wrong in my interpretation?

That depends on your local areas licensing requirements. Some areas require it for doing electrical work, others don't. Where are you located at?

 

[GoldDigger]

Under OSHA, it is rare and hard to justify for anyone to work with inside energized equipment (live work) regardless of their training or licensing.

Tapatalk!

 

[jim dungar]

Under OSHA, it is rare and hard to justify for anyone to work with inside energized equipment (live work) regardless of their training or licensing.

That depends on how you define the word 'work'. OSHA definitely allows troubleshooting energized equipment.

But I agree with the intent behind your comment. I see little reason for the majority of insulated tools. Rarely have I ever had to use wire cutters and strippers as part of routine troubleshooting (yes I've done it but I normally didn't have to).

The problem still comes in in defining what is energized equipment. This is where a company's Electrical Safe Work Practices program is important. Is it allowable to change fuses in a switch that still has voltage on its line terminals? Why not? All you have to do is stay a few inches away from the exposed lugs (restricted approach boundary) and wear appropriate PPE (arc flash boundary).

 

[Jim Lenardson]

Under OSHA, it is rare and hard to justify for anyone to work with inside energized equipment (live work) regardless of their training or licensing.

Tapatalk!

I live and work in Michigan, near Jackson. In the machine repair world I am in energized panels everyday troubleshooting equipment. Sometimes it's connecting a laptop to a processor, sometimes troubleshooting 24VDC and anything up to 480 3ph. At my previous place of employment everyone who opened a junction box had to be licensed. Where I am now you only have to be maintenance personnel.....no license requirements. Often these same assoc are replacing 3 ph contactors and/or wiring after troubleshooting and then deenergizing the panel.

I know how industrial machine panels are a grey area in the NEC. But as a licensed master (not on record for the company) I'm not comfortable with watching unqualified people work around high voltage. It's like an MD driving past a car accident and not stopping.

 

[jim dungar]

I know how industrial machine panels are a grey area in the NEC. But as a licensed master (not on record for the company) I'm not comfortable with watching unqualified people work around high voltage. It's like an MD driving past a car accident and not stopping.

Read the NEC and NFPA70E definitions of 'Qualified'. They do not contain any reference to licensing, in fact they don't even mention the title 'electrician'. They are concerned about training for the task being performed.
I am sure you know several licensed 'industrial' contractors that you would not have put a new service at your mother's house, just like there are licensed 'residential' ones you wouldn't want wiring a PLC.

 

[Jim Lenardson]

My computer is giving me fits so I can't get NFPA70E to open. Java issues. However my understanding of 70E is that it is not typically enforced by any authority beyond an employer or site boss if you will. Maybe MIOSHA enforces it? There has to be a clear cut definition somewhere as to who can work around exposed, energized equipment. Especially when it's 480V 3ph. Article 100 definition of "qualified" is pretty weak. Maybe I need to look for Michigan code specifically.

 

[cadpoint]

Java issues...

As far as I know!

You should not upgrade your java, NFPA locks in whatever the date/version is when
they release their software.

 

[jim dungar]

As far as I know!

You should not upgrade your java, NFPA locks in whatever the date/version is when
they release their software.

You can have multiple versions of Java installed on your computer at one time.
Old versions do not have all of the current 'safety' features, so I do not let my old versions run automatically.

 

[cadpoint]

As far as I know!

You should not upgrade your java, NFPA locks in whatever the date/version is when
they release their software.

You can have multiple versions of Java installed on your computer at one time.
Old versions do not have all of the current 'safety' features, so I do not let my old versions run automatically.

Let me revise my 2 cents...

As far as I know!
You should not upgrade your java and DELETE your active version of JAVA,
if you did delete a version, one can go find older versions to load back.

NFPA locks in whatever the date/version is when they release their software.

 

[jim dungar]

NFPA locks in whatever the date/version is when they release their software.

I know with are going OT but, is it the Java when the software was released or when it was installed?. I am getting a new computer and want to keep it as clean as possible, at least in the beginning.

Back to the OP,
I believe the definition of Qualified Person is now the same in both the NEC and NFPA70E.
It is all about being trained on the consequences/dangers of the specific tasks being performed, as well as having 'the skills' to accomplish them.

 

[GoldDigger]

The NFPA software can only be counted on to work with the most recent versions of Java available at the time the software was last revised.
As far as your computer environment is concerned, I would expect it to set a pointer to the actual disk location of whatever installed version of Java was the system default at the time the NFPA software was installed.
If you are very skilled or lucky you may be able to change that reference without breaking the installation security. But, as stated, if you just remove the old Java version and install the new one to a different directory path you will have problems

Tapatalk!

 

[Jim Lenardson]

We've all heard stories or experienced a AHJ pulling someone off a job site for not being licensed. I guess my main goal is defining the cutoff point where qualified meets licensed when it comes to NEC. How is one considered qualified? What are the minimum standards? If someone who is "qualified" can run 480v motor circuits why do they have to be licensed to add 120v outlets? What defines work? Testing live conductors with a volt meter? Resetting overloads? Changing fuses? Or does "work" start when you run wire?

 

[cadpoint]

I know with are going OT but, is it the Java when the software was released or when it was installed?. I am getting a new computer and want to keep it as clean as possible, at least in the beginning.

Back to the OP,
I believe the definition of Qualified Person is now the same in both the NEC and NFPA70E.
It is all about being trained on the consequences/dangers of the specific tasks being performed, as well as having 'the skills' to accomplish them.

Welp were not even talking about the correct software, I'll sit down and be quite on this.

http://www.nfpa.org/catalog-help

JavaScript - not to be confused with Java^TM

 

[Jim Lenardson]

I always thought "qualified" personnel were basically authorized to reset breakers in large load centers where you don't want just anyone flipping 600a breakers like light switches. But "qualified" shouldn't be working around exposed live conductors or connections. That's where the "licensed" personnel should be stepping in. Any opinions or references to clear this up? Still working on my PC to open NFPA70E.

 

[Jim Lenardson]

Ok, I've spent some time with nfpa70e and it didn't get me past the "qualified" requirement. Looking at michigans public act 217 of 1956 I've interpreted that, to put it bluntly, anyone can do anything if it costs less than $100. You must be licensed to do anything other than " minor repair work" which is defined as costing less than $100. I've yet to find anything that says any joe blow deemed qualified by an employer can't work on live high voltage equipment. Anybody read that differently than me?

 

[wtucker]

"Brother," above, was right when he said licensing requirements vary from state to state. And, "licensed" and "qualified" are two way different things. An electrician who's been doing residential wiring for 10 years is proabably not be qualified to open a 480V switchgear.

Here's what I found of the Michigan law:

338.887 Electrical contractor's license requirements; exceptions.

Sec. 7.
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this act or in subsection (3), a person shall not engage in the business of electrical contracting unless the person has received from the board or from the appropriate municipality an electrical contractor's license.

(2) Except as otherwise provided in this act or in subsection (3), an individual, other than an individual who is licensed under this act and employed by and working under the direction of a holder of an electrical contractor's license, shall not in any manner undertake to execute any electrical wiring [with certain exceptions].

The first part has to do with contracting, the second part says unlicensed persons can't do "electrical wiring." Sec. 1 of the act defines "wiring" as "all wiring, generating equipment, fixtures, appliances, and appurtenances in connection with the generation, distribution, and utilization of electrical energy, within or on a building, residence, structure, or properties, and including service entrance wiring as defined by the code."

The best interpretation can only come from the Michigan electrical administrative board.