Rule for following blueprint

[electricblue]

I got a building official causing problems. If I add an outlet not on the print or don't put an outlet on the print, he asks for updated plans and says it's not wired to plans. This is very small commercial. I understand prints are diagramatic. Where would I find this rule to do this or requirement. This is a small city. It is to code.

 

[__dan]

My first guess is the requirement for plans would be a state or local statute. He may need to cite a code reference that requires plans for your job. There's usually a size and use type limit above which plans and/or engineer stamped plans are required by statute. Under that limit, the statutory requirement may just be licensed trade contractor signature on the permit. It varies by state statute.

I don't know Florida, what could be required for plans, plan review, but I would guess there has to be a code or statutory requirement.

 

[electricblue]

471.003 Qualifications for practice; exemptions.?

(1) No person other than a duly licensed engineer shall practice engineering or use the name or title of ?licensed engineer,? ?professional engineer,? or any other title, designation, words, letters, abbreviations, or device tending to indicate that such person holds an active license as an engineer in this state.

(2) The following persons are not required to be licensed under the provisions of this chapter as a licensed engineer:

(h) Any electrical, plumbing, air-conditioning, or mechanical contractor whose practice includes the design and fabrication of electrical, plumbing, air-conditioning, or mechanical systems, respectively, which she or he installs by virtue of a license issued under chapter 489, under part I of chapter 553, or under any special act or ordinance when working on any construction project which:

1. Requires an electrical or plumbing or air-conditioning and refrigeration system with a value of $125,000 or less; and

2.a. Requires an aggregate service capacity of 600 amperes (240 volts) or less on a residential electrical system or 800 amperes (240 volts) or less on a commercial or industrial electrical system

 

[JDBrown]

I got a building official causing problems. If I add an outlet not on the print or don't put an outlet on the print, he asks for updated plans and says it's not wired to plans. This is very small commercial. I understand prints are diagramatic. Where would I find this rule to do this or requirement. This is a small city. It is to code.

My experience has been that this tends to happen more when budgets are tight. If they can make you pay some extra plan check fees, they will. It's unfortunate, but it's one of those battles that tends to be very difficult and costly to fight -- which is why most Contractors and Engineers just go along with it. Better to pay the extra plan check fees than to hold up the project because you got into an ego contest with the Inspector, which is how many Owners would see it. A couple hundred bucks extra is nothing compared to their building sitting empty when it could be generating revenue, while you duke it out with the Inspector.

As for where this rule/requirement for following the printed plans exactly is located, it's not in the NEC. The NEC doesn't even require prints. If this rule is written down at all, it will be in local code amendments (unlikely) or local Building Department Policies (more likely).

 

[electricblue]

I was requested to conduct an electrical rough-in inspection yesterday for the project. When I arrived at the jobsite I found that the rough-in was incomplete and was not done in accordance with the approved electrical drawings. There was also yet another change to the floor plan. This project has been stymied by several changes during construction resulting in multiple re-iterations of the plans and specifications as well as significant delay and cost to the owner. Florida Statute waives the requirement for engineered MEP drawings under specific circumstances and allows the contractor licensed in that particular discipline to accept responsibility for design and code compliance (see attachment). In this instance, you may want to have the electrical subcontractor of record provide the electrical as-built drawings, revised load calcs etc.. You may then submit them as an addendum. This should expedite review and approval of the changes and facilitate the electrical inspection while saving the owner time and money.

 

[electricblue]

I'm so pissed. This is such a small job maybe 100sq ft. Couple of lights and outlets. This guy has been dragging this for a loooong time and now I'm up. I request a wall rough only and I get this. There might be an extra general purpose outlet or 2. :rant:

 

[__dan]

I see where the statute says the EC is an exempt person under the size limit stated (may design and do load calcs).

Nowhere in the above citation does it say that a plan is required for the job. You were cited a violation of not following the plan. There would have to be a local code or state statute saying that is a plan required job (shall provide plans), or that not following the plan is a code or statutory violation.

You may gently ask for the code reference stating where the plan is required for the job, or the variance is a citeable violation (asking for the code reference is typically your only recourse or being prepared with your own code references). And, sometimes the code citation authorizes the authority to make suitable interpretations and regulatory procedures. The only thing in your favor is that it is a process that would have to survive public scrutiny, you can tour the plant where the sausages are made. Be professional, diligent, and honest. Get to know the people.

I would advise caution at indicated above, as it happens and is common, if butt kissing is actually what is required and only butt kissing will do, violations, or deficient butt kissing, carry penalties steeper than the imagination can contain.

 

[__dan]

I would add that detailed plans and permits protect the EC. In the event that others install wiring using extension cords or backfeed the building with a generator and the place burns down, someone gets shocked, that's where your plan and permit would show the negligent work was not by you, not installed under your permit.

 

[texie]

I got a building official causing problems. If I add an outlet not on the print or don't put an outlet on the print, he asks for updated plans and says it's not wired to plans. This is very small commercial. I understand prints are diagramatic. Where would I find this rule to do this or requirement. This is a small city. It is to code.

Based on your description, yes, this seems unreasonable to me. But this is where a good inspector, that should have the technical ability, should use discretion. I say this as there are some things that should not deviate from a PE's plans and a good inspector should be able to recognize things that have serious implications, and that would not be an extra recep. or 2 as long as it is code compliant.
As an example, let's say that the engineer called for 4 sets of 350 KCMIL for a service but on the job the EC decides he has a ton of 500 KCMIL he wants to get rid of so he uses that. That could have serious implications on the fault current calculations and the AHJ should flag that.
A good inspector should be tell the harmless from the important stuff.
Sadly, there are to many that don't have a clue.
Of course there is a flip side to this as well. What if the engineer made a mistake and the EC catches it and corrects it? Had a job today where the PE call for a #3 EGC. Problem was that it was supposed to be a 3/0. I find that these same type of inspectors would just blow right by that as that is what is on the drawing.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I got a building official causing problems. If I add an outlet not on the print or don't put an outlet on the print, he asks for updated plans and says it's not wired to plans. This is very small commercial. I understand prints are diagramatic. Where would I find this rule to do this or requirement. This is a small city. It is to code.

People don't care about Ohio but I'll give another example.

The electrical inspector inspects per the NEC and the print. If the print changes the EI cannot approve that change because, odds are, he is not an Electrical Plans Examiner.

May sound silly but I do not make the laws.

 

[electricblue]

Based on your description, yes, this seems unreasonable to me. But this is where a good inspector, that should have the technical ability, should use discretion. I say this as there are some things that should not deviate from a PE's plans and a good inspector should be able to recognize things that have serious implications, and that would not be an extra recep. or 2 as long as it is code compliant.
As an example, let's say that the engineer called for 4 sets of 350 KCMIL for a service but on the job the EC decides he has a ton of 500 KCMIL he wants to get rid of so he uses that. That could have serious implications on the fault current calculations and the AHJ should flag that.
A good inspector should be tell the harmless from the important stuff.
Sadly, there are to many that don't have a clue.
Of course there is a flip side to this as well. What if the engineer made a mistake and the EC catches it and corrects it? Had a job today where the PE call for a #3 EGC. Problem was that it was supposed to be a 3/0. I find that these same type of inspectors would just blow right by that as that is what is on the drawing.

Totally agree. This guy wants a plan review for a service upgrade on a residence. Takes a couple days

 

[mgookin]

The requirement for plans, and the requirement to follow the plans, comes out of ch 553 florida statutes where it says the building official may not issue a permit until the plans have been reviewed for code compliance. There is an exception that says where plans are not required ... (think roof covering replacement)...

I agree that in tough times a building dept will be overly idiotic which is horrible government, but true. Not everyone does it but I have seen it during economic cycles throughout my lifetime in more than one bldg dept. You as an EC have no recourse. Play their game.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Here in CA it says that no one can make changes to the plans except for the engineer that drew them. Now I'm not super picky about the plans, but I am depending on the change.

Here's the one of the reasons. We are required to keep all commercial plans for ever and always. I'm in charge of the offsite and on site plan storage. Our off site storage is all the way across town in two old sea containers. About twice a month I get a request for plans from an engineer or one of our plan checkers (I do the electrical plan checks). If I drive all the way down there and get them a set of plans so that they can see what is already existing, what good does it do, if the plans don't match the actual work that was done. What would you do as an EC if you say, looked at a set of plans saw that it had a 1200 amp service and you plan accordingly because you've got plenty of spare power, then you show up and it's only a 800 amp service and now you didn't count on that?

Also as a plan checker/inspector there is nothing worse than working on a set of plans for three or four submittals and finally getting them approved, show up to the job and there's a bunch of changes that don't even start to match the scope (happened yesterday) now how many hours of my time do you think were wasted doing an worthless plan check. I'm the last person to see those plans, any changes could have been made before or during the plan check process, after the plans are stamped is not the time.

 

[mgookin]

...

Also as a plan checker/inspector there is nothing worse than working on a set of plans for three or four submittals and finally getting them approved, show up to the job and there's a bunch of changes that don't even start to match the scope (happened yesterday) now how many hours of my time do you think were wasted doing an worthless plan check. I'm the last person to see those plans, any changes could have been made before or during the plan check process, after the plans are stamped is not the time.

Or you get inspectors who are too lazy to read the plans and a year later you find out they used the original bid set and built it in violation of code after all that work to get the design right.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Or you get inspectors who are too lazy to read the plans and a year later you find out they used the original bid set and built it in violation of code after all that work to get the design right.

That couldn't be more true. Had just the opposite Wednesday. Working off original plans,call for final, I ask where the exterior emergency lights are. Not on my plans he says, that's to bad, because they're on the stamped set. About a $1200+ mistake, unless the GC is nice.

 

[JDBrown]

That couldn't be more true. Had just the opposite Wednesday. Working off original plans,call for final, I ask where the exterior emergency lights are. Not on my plans he says, that's to bad, because they're on the stamped set. About a $1200+ mistake, unless the GC is nice.

We had something similar happen at the end of last year. Did a site visit for a job that was nearly completed, and asked the EC where the rest of the lights were. He replied that there were no other lights. It turned out he was working from the Bid Set, even though there had been an Addendum, the permitted Construction Set, and a couple of Bulletins after that. After some checking, we determined that the Architect had sent the updated plans to the GC, but the GC had never bothered to pass them along to the EC. Oops. :slaphead:

 

[Sierrasparky]

Here in CA it says that no one can make changes to the plans except for the engineer that drew them. Now I'm not super picky about the plans, but I am depending on the change.

Here's the one of the reasons. We are required to keep all commercial plans for ever and always. I'm in charge of the offsite and on site plan storage. Our off site storage is all the way across town in two old sea containers. About twice a month I get a request for plans from an engineer or one of our plan checkers (I do the electrical plan checks). If I drive all the way down there and get them a set of plans so that they can see what is already existing, what good does it do, if the plans don't match the actual work that was done. What would you do as an EC if you say, looked at a set of plans saw that it had a 1200 amp service and you plan accordingly because you've got plenty of spare power, then you show up and it's only a 800 amp service and now you didn't count on that?

Also as a plan checker/inspector there is nothing worse than working on a set of plans for three or four submittals and finally getting them approved, show up to the job and there's a bunch of changes that don't even start to match the scope (happened yesterday) now how many hours of my time do you think were wasted doing an worthless plan check. I'm the last person to see those plans, any changes could have been made before or during the plan check process, after the plans are stamped is not the time.

Can you cite the code that does not permit the EC to make a change.
I was under the impression the EC can submit changes.

 

[kwired]

Here's the one of the reasons. We are required to keep all commercial plans for ever and always. I'm in charge of the offsite and on site plan storage. Our off site storage is all the way across town in two old sea containers. About twice a month I get a request for plans from an engineer or one of our plan checkers (I do the electrical plan checks). If I drive all the way down there and get them a set of plans so that they can see what is already existing, what good does it do, if the plans don't match the actual work that was done. What would you do as an EC if you say, looked at a set of plans saw that it had a 1200 amp service and you plan accordingly because you've got plenty of spare power, then you show up and it's only a 800 amp service and now you didn't count on that?

If I was the EC, keeping in mind that no such plans are on file around here, but if they were, I would still be going to that site and taking a look for myself at what is there before making plans for how to attack a particular job. Mistakes happen, things may get changed either with or without proper documentation, and that is just how I operate. Even on totally new construction I usually take a look at the site before any work is done and sometimes makes the plans seem to look a little different than if I never saw the site.

 

[Fulthrotl]

If I was the EC, keeping in mind that no such plans are on file around here, but if they were, I would still be going to that site and taking a look for myself at what is there before making plans for how to attack a particular job. Mistakes happen, things may get changed either with or without proper documentation, and that is just how I operate. Even on totally new construction I usually take a look at the site before any work is done and sometimes makes the plans seem to look a little different than if I never saw the site.

indeed. if you bid something off 10 year old as builts, you deserve what will happen to you.

a project management group who shall remain nameless, did a green book exclusion preventing
renegotiation of contract pricing for dewatering excavation, specifying a fixed amount per gallon
of groundwater treated, and not modifiable by either party. green book contracts for public works
allow renegotiation of an item by either party if the unit amount changes by more than 25%.
this allows for unforeseen occurrences.

they did this based on a ten year old water table survey of the property, thinking my company
would not even be able to recover the cost of setting up carbon filters and baker tanks. they figured
total water treated to be < 100k gallons. for the entire project. i mean, there is this survey,
showing the water table waaaaay down there..... what could go wrong?

yep. they showed us. however, things change. including the water table.

at the peak of dewatering, we were running two 6" diesel pumps full boat, treating about 400,000
gallons....

per day.

at a fixed, non negotiable amount. it was a $25M project total, and the profit on treating the water
poured down the drain was more than the profit on the entire job, by an order of magnitude.

took a lawsuit, and three years to collect, but at the end of the day......

 

[Sierrasparky]

indeed. if you bid something off 10 year old as builts, you deserve what will happen to you.

a project management group who shall remain nameless, did a green book exclusion preventing
renegotiation of contract pricing for dewatering excavation, specifying a fixed amount per gallon
of groundwater treated, and not modifiable by either party. green book contracts for public works
allow renegotiation of an item by either party if the unit amount changes by more than 25%.
this allows for unforeseen occurrences.

they did this based on a ten year old water table survey of the property, thinking my company
would not even be able to recover the cost of setting up carbon filters and baker tanks. they figured
total water treated to be < 100k gallons. for the entire project. i mean, there is this survey,
showing the water table waaaaay down there..... what could go wrong?

yep. they showed us. however, things change. including the water table.

at the peak of dewatering, we were running two 6" diesel pumps full boat, treating about 400,000
gallons....

per day.

at a fixed, non negotiable amount. it was a $25M project total, and the profit on treating the water
poured down the drain was more than the profit on the entire job, by an order of magnitude.

took a lawsuit, and three years to collect, but at the end of the day......

Didn't we hear that one before.