URD Services

[mwm1752]

Although who installed the wiring is a good clue as to the jurisdiction over the wire and more importantly where the service point is.
It sounds like the panel st the house is being treated as the service point.
If that determination is valid, then how many locations before that point the utility chooses to ground the neutral is not an NEC issue.
So, what factors might conclusively establish where the service point and the designated service disconnect is?
If any loads like A/C or outbuilding are tapped off before the breaker at the house or the feed to an internal sub panel does not go through that breaker then it is probably not the service disconnect.
Where there are ground neutral bonds is also a clue.

Tapatalk!

You are correct IMO but I have not seen the utility choose the point of demarcation after the first point of disconnect. They do not want responsibility of damaged goods from anothers install. I have never seen the utility install service equipment. But my area is limited maybe someone esle has experienced that. If the issue of installing an ECG in this instance is no more than a ownership issue, does the insinuate that the utility does not see a life safety issue in the 3 wire install?

 

[kwired]

You are correct IMO but I have not seen the utility choose the point of demarcation after the first point of disconnect. They do not want responsibility of damaged goods from anothers install. I have never seen the utility install service equipment. But my area is limited maybe someone esle has experienced that. If the issue of installing an ECG in this instance is no more than a ownership issue, does the insinuate that the utility does not see a life safety issue in the 3 wire install?

In general utility people do not know what an "equipment grounding conductor" is. To them a grounded conductor is a grounded conductor whether it's primary function is to carry current or not. A bad neutral connection at a transformer secondary is still going to put any voltage on that neutral on any connected equipment grounding conductors attached to it. A bad neutral connection at the load end of a service drop or lateral is still going to put any voltage on that neutral on any connected equipment grounding conductors connected to it.

A feeder that uses the grounded conductor for equipment grounding is no different. Running a separate equipment grounding conductor mostly only eliminates voltages between the EGC and earth due to voltage drop on the service/feeder grounded conductor(s). And any voltage drop on POCO primary neutral is also injected into premises wiring systems because it is bonded to secondary grounded conductors, and there is not much we can do about it. The shock hazards that often come up around boat docks where all the premises grounding is otherwise done correctly is because of problems on the POCO side of things. Additional equipment grounding conductors will not help these situations. Those same situations can be and often are present at swimming pools, but proper equipotential bonding in those locations greatly minimizes that threat.

 

[jap]

If an EGC is run with the Ungrounded and Grounded conductors from a remote meter main to the houise,regardless of wether it is Power Company supplied or Owner Supplied and they are bonded at the meter main and kept seperate at the house,and somehow the neutral conductor gets severed or looses connection between the Pedestal and the house, how is that neutral current going to end up energizing the non current carrying parts in the house?

Now if an EGC is not run with the feeer to the house and the neutral and ground are bonded together at the house as they will need to be, and the same thing happens I can see everything becoming energized in the house.

i can see the voltage getting out of whack and burning things up if a neutral connection is loose or lost but not energizing the normal non current carrying parts if the Neutral and ground are seperated at the house.

The Neutral current should be seeking a path back to its source, not to the house.

I know its not different than a 3 wire service to the house, if the meter was mounted on the house and you have no choice but to use the Grounded Conductor back to the source, but, if you have the chance to illiminate some of that why not do it in a remote meter/main installation?

 

[jap]

Never mind, I can see where if the neutal lost connection ahead of the meter main where it would energzize the EGC but it may help with some issues if the neutral connection was lost after the meter main.

 

[kwired]

If an EGC is run with the Ungrounded and Grounded conductors from a remote meter main to the houise,regardless of wether it is Power Company supplied or Owner Supplied and they are bonded at the meter main and kept seperate at the house,and somehow the neutral conductor gets severed or looses connection between the Pedestal and the house, how is that neutral current going to end up energizing the non current carrying parts in the house?

Now if an EGC is not run with the feeer to the house and the neutral and ground are bonded together at the house as they will need to be, and the same thing happens I can see everything becoming energized in the house.

i can see the voltage getting out of whack and burning things up if a neutral connection is loose or lost but not energizing the normal non current carrying parts if the Neutral and ground are seperated at the house.

The Neutral current should be seeking a path back to its source, not to the house.

I know its not different than a 3 wire service to the house, if the meter was mounted on the house and you have no choice but to use the Grounded Conductor back to the source, but, if you have the chance to illiminate some of that why not do it in a remote meter/main installation?

I do not disagree with you, and will even say that though it is code violation you could run the 4th wire for services as well and accomplish some of the same things.

The AHJ of this state has decided that if that meter/main or other disconnecting means is not installed and maintained by the owner/contractor then it is not to be considered the service disconnecting means as it can be easily replaced by the utility with something different. This decision was made more for the instances where a service disconnecting means may not be present at all if the POCO changes things then for the reason of service/feeder and equipment grounding reasons I believe, as they had taken this approach even before NEC started disallowing use of the grounded conductor to serve equipment grounding needs at separate buildings or structures.

If the equipment in question is going to be replaced by the owner/contractor chances are there is a permit and inspection and it will comply with codes in those instances - whatever it may be, but POCO will not necessarily put the same/similar equipment back in place. That is all I was really saying. If there is a 4th conductor run and it is service instead of feeder you will complicate things, service equipment needs to be bonded to the grounded conductor, if you would have a reduced size EGC it becomes an improperly installed parallel conductor, and is pointless anyway if bonded at both ends.

 

[jap]

I do not disagree with you, and will even say that though it is code violation you could run the 4th wire for services as well and accomplish some of the same things.

The AHJ of this state has decided that if that meter/main or other disconnecting means is not installed and maintained by the owner/contractor then it is not to be considered the service disconnecting means as it can be easily replaced by the utility with something different. This decision was made more for the instances where a service disconnecting means may not be present at all if the POCO changes things then for the reason of service/feeder and equipment grounding reasons I believe, as they had taken this approach even before NEC started disallowing use of the grounded conductor to serve equipment grounding needs at separate buildings or structures.

If the equipment in question is going to be replaced by the owner/contractor chances are there is a permit and inspection and it will comply with codes in those instances - whatever it may be, but POCO will not necessarily put the same/similar equipment back in place. That is all I was really saying. If there is a 4th conductor run and it is service instead of feeder you will complicate things, service equipment needs to be bonded to the grounded conductor, if you would have a reduced size EGC it becomes an improperly installed parallel conductor, and is pointless anyway if bonded at both ends.

I dont disagree with you either at all, it just seems most arguments made about having to install or not install an EGC along with a Grounded Conductor or not, tends to rely on where the 1st means of disconnect is. In my mind it has always been at the 1st overcurrent device wether its installed by the power company or not.
Like i say, the Power Company comes and plants a 200a meter pedestal with a 200amp breaker in it and leaves, the care less about our code and to no discredit to them.
I doubt the inspector around here even knows if its right or not, but, I always come up with the same question every time i see it and seem unable to defend having to install the EGC in this scenario although if i were doing the install, I believe I would install an EGC from the Meter Main to the hous.

 

[jap]

it may have something to do also with around here you will never see anything coming off the load side of a meter that doesnt have a fused disconnect or breaker directly below it or very near (Withing 10' at the most). I never see meters where the load side service conductors travel more than that without an overcurrent means like you all do in your areas.
that is very uncommon here. The power company responsiblity stops at the line side of the meter on an overhead service ,if they pull up and everything is ok to the line side of the meter then its the customers problem from there down, unless its a meter main pedestal that they have set , then they'll replace the pedestal with another just like it but an electrician has to come and terminate the load side of the breaker they will not.

 

[kwired]

it may have something to do also with around here you will never see anything coming off the load side of a meter that doesnt have a fused disconnect or breaker directly below it or very near (Withing 10' at the most). I never see meters where the load side service conductors travel more than that without an overcurrent means like you all do in your areas.
that is very uncommon here. The power company responsiblity stops at the line side of the meter on an overhead service ,if they pull up and everything is ok to the line side of the meter then its the customers problem from there down, unless its a meter main pedestal that they have set , then they'll replace the pedestal with another just like it but an electrician has to come and terminate the load side of the breaker they will not.

If that were the norm around here and there was little exception I'm sure we likely would be calling that the service disconnecting means in nearly all cases, everything leaving that would be a feeder and require a separate EGC.

In cities and towns it is not so common to see a disconnect at the meter provided by POCO, but in rural areas is fairly standard - even for three phase any voltage and 480 volt services - 200 amp or less anyway. I think their main goal with this is to leave the customer with a convenient way for disconnection without having to call POCO for disconnection. In the rural areas that main pole or pedestal is the main distribution point for the entire property no matter how many buildings or structures may be there, where in the cities and villages it is usually hitting a main building and then being distributed to others if necessary, and there is typically not as many aux buildings in cities or villages as there is in the rural areas either.

 

[jap]

If that were the norm around here and there was little exception I'm sure we likely would be calling that the service disconnecting means in nearly all cases, everything leaving that would be a feeder and require a separate EGC.

In cities and towns it is not so common to see a disconnect at the meter provided by POCO, but in rural areas is fairly standard - even for three phase any voltage and 480 volt services - 200 amp or less anyway. I think their main goal with this is to leave the customer with a convenient way for disconnection without having to call POCO for disconnection. In the rural areas that main pole or pedestal is the main distribution point for the entire property no matter how many buildings or structures may be there, where in the cities and villages it is usually hitting a main building and then being distributed to others if necessary, and there is typically not as many aux buildings in cities or villages as there is in the rural areas either.

Me and You really need to get a life. I was just thinking we posted on this issue on Sunday also...... Lord help us. we're addicted to electricity.

 

[kwired]

Me and You really need to get a life. I was just thinking we posted on this issue on Sunday also...... Lord help us. we're addicted to electricity.

No disagreement there:ashamed1: