tonype
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Three new home concerns
- Thread starter tonype
- Start date
- Status
Regarding the second and third pictures I personally would have rrun the NM up through a stub of conduit to protect the NM from being damaged by items that may be placed in the cabinet.
Regarding the lugs on the breaker being suitable for 2 wires they most likely are rated as such. But, the breaker should be labeled for use as such!.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
No
Yes
Maybe
Yes
Maybe
IMO,
Yes, derating needs to be considered, because they are bundled longer than 24"
Yes, because subject to physical damage.
Probably, need to check with Square-D
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
No.
1. I find this an interesting question and took the liberty of copying your picture to another thread and running a poll on how many folks would consider that bundling.
2. IMO, protection would be required
3. My SquareD catalog shows (2) wires allowed on 15-30 amp breakers and does not differentiate for AFCIs. I do not have an actual breaker to see if it is marked.
2. IMO, protection would be required
3. My SquareD catalog shows (2) wires allowed on 15-30 amp breakers and does not differentiate for AFCIs. I do not have an actual breaker to see if it is marked.
tonype
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
I agree. Only regular QO type are rated for double wires.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
As far as the kickspace heater goes. I would not hardwire it unless it has a long whip for servicing. One customer I am always pulling it out for cleaning or the one shot thermal going out. It's even on a timer.
north star
Senior Member
- Location
- inside Area 51
~ ~ ~ & ~ ~ ~
1. Yes, refer to Section E3605.3, in the `06 IRC.
2. By the Letter of the NEC & the IRC, ...probably.......Most people
give no thought or concern to what they slam up against, or
store underneath the sinks........Your definition of "Subject
to physical damage" may be different than mine though !
3. I would refer to Square D for their manufacturer's requirements.
~ ~ ~ & ~ ~ ~
1. Yes, refer to Section E3605.3, in the `06 IRC.
2. By the Letter of the NEC & the IRC, ...probably.......Most people
give no thought or concern to what they slam up against, or
store underneath the sinks........Your definition of "Subject
to physical damage" may be different than mine though !
3. I would refer to Square D for their manufacturer's requirements.
~ ~ ~ & ~ ~ ~
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
If you look at a QOAF you will see that it is just like a QO breaker in regards to the wire lugs. However, there is a very obvious exception. ONE OF THE HOLES AT THE SCREW HAS BEEN BLOCKED OFF. Why do you suppose they did that? The only way you can double tap a QO is one wire on each side of the screw. No you cannot double tap a Sq D AF. "Wake up America"
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
"Wake up America" not all of us use QO in general, let alone their AFCIs. I personally have held one in my hand but never looked to see if it could be double lugged. Didn't have a reason to look.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Are you asking if they are bundled? I would say they are.
How is this any different than dishwasher wiring under a kitchen sink?
Don't know.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Bundling is not the correct term.
from 310.15(B)(3):
By calling it "bundling" it gives many the impression there must be cable ties or similar devices holding those conductors or cables in a "bundle" but the wording in 310.15(B)(3)(a) doesn't use the word "bundling" instead is more generally described as any situation where conductors/cables are in close proximity with no maintained spacing to help with cooling effects.
I suppose one may have a valid argument if you made an obvious attempt to pull those cables apart between each joist, but with no attempt of separation at all they must comply with the adjustment requirements IMO.
from 310.15(B)(3):
By calling it "bundling" it gives many the impression there must be cable ties or similar devices holding those conductors or cables in a "bundle" but the wording in 310.15(B)(3)(a) doesn't use the word "bundling" instead is more generally described as any situation where conductors/cables are in close proximity with no maintained spacing to help with cooling effects.
I suppose one may have a valid argument if you made an obvious attempt to pull those cables apart between each joist, but with no attempt of separation at all they must comply with the adjustment requirements IMO.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
how much distance between cables is required to "maintain spacing"? It appears to me that there is some space between at least some of the cables in the bundles in the picture.
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
Last edited:
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I have to say that it can be a judgement call, but just how many cables can we pull through the same set of holes bored in the framing before we decide it is too hard to consider any spacing being adequately maintained?
Years ago the place I worked for when we did new houses we usually drilled about a 2.5 inch hole and ran however many cables we needed in it, seldom ever needed a second set of holes. Now I still kind of think the load diversity factor of most dwelling circuits still doesn't contribute to excessive heating, but that is a different issue. I now drill only 3/4 - 1 inch holes and usually several sets when close to the panel and only install 9 or less current carrying conductors in whatever combination of cables end up being installed in each hole. If you put many more cables then that in there how do you ensure the ones in the center of the group have adequate spacing around them to dissipate heat? The outer ones may not have enough spacing but at least have more surface exposure to free air.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
I do not see any difference from exposed NM under a sink running to a dishwasher, and I do not like that either.
Tapatalk!
- Status