Relocate pool pumps question.

[ritelec]

Hello.

The pool guy sent me a picture to quote what it would take to move the pool pumps over...

ok???

My calculating design head has gone out the window.
!25% of the largest motor and the additions of the other loads doesn't seam to apply anymore as the motors would have to be protected up to 250%.
So I'm thinking "each" of these to motors would need a separate circuit. If this is correct, I would have to explain this to the pool guy as they both may be being fed from one currently.

Judging by the picture provided, how many circuits would you believe need to be there?

The equipment:

2- pumps
1- gas heater
1- ionizer
1- light


I am guessing here.

1- 240v motor with gas heater
1- 240v motor with ionizer
1- 120v light


Thank you for the input.
Rich

 

[ritelec]

OK........
Pool guy called to mention the owners electrician will handle it...

But really, for my head, how would this get attacked.

thank you,

 

[ritelec]

examining the picture and I've seen this before..
not sure if it's code (think not)
but the time clocks are the motor disconnects..

do the motors run separate so one motor circuit is permissible... or even if they do run separate two circuits would be required

 

[Little Bill]

You're best bet would be to run a sub panel close to the pool equipment.

I just did this a while back and the inspector wouldn't allow the time clocks to be the disconnect.

Each motor would need it's own disconnect within sight of the pumps/motors.

 

[ritelec]

Thanks little bill.

As mentioned someone else would be doing it. So just trying to get my head
Around pools.

Assuming the half inch is the feed and the three quarter is to the light.
Or the other way around. But. If there's a spliced ground in that box for the pool
lighting and motors that would be wrong. Correct?

Safe to assume that each motor would need its own circuit? Correct?

Thanks again.

 

[ritelec]

Ok 3/4 might be in. Anyway.

 

[Little Bill]

Thanks little bill.

As mentioned someone else would be doing it. So just trying to get my head
Around pools.

Assuming the half inch is the feed and the three quarter is to the light.
Or the other way around. But. If there's a spliced ground in that box for the pool
lighting and motors that would be wrong. Correct?

Safe to assume that each motor would need its own circuit? Correct?

Thanks again.

As long as the EGC is insulated and ran or spliced properly I don't see a problem with it being spliced.

There is an exception in motors for more than one one a circuit, but it's hard to meet the criteria. So IMO, it's better to provide each motor with it's own circuit. That's why I said it would be better to run a sub panel out by the equipment. Then you can branch off that for your different circuits.

 

[hurk27]

I don't see any EPB bonding conductor? so an EPB would have to be installed, is the fence also bonded?, an inspector could have a field day with this one.

 

[ritelec]

Thank you for the replies...

As mentioned, someone else will be relocating this..

However, I just sealed a permit for the pool man...

two motors, light, bonding, time clock...

he believes the job should run about 500 dollars...

He's saying I should be able to put two 10 amp motors on a 30 amp breaker, and time clocks a disconnect.

So trying to explain to him.. as suggested, plan on a circuit per motor. Time clock is not considered a disconnect.


Question.. lets say there are 2 motors.. @ 10 amps...

10 * 1.25 = 12.5 + 10 = 22.5 amps

10 * 2.50 = 25

80% of 25 = 20 (or the reciprocal ??) 10 + 10 = 20

Shouldn't I be able to feed these two motors with one 25 amp circuit (if I could get the breaker) and because it's not 20 amp or under, it would not have to be gfci ?

And, where might I find reference to the clock not being a disconnect?

Thank you..

 

[ritelec]

I don't see any EPB bonding conductor? so an EPB would have to be installed, is the fence also bonded?, an inspector could have a field day with this one.

I don't (didn't) either.
The fence...I will look through the book for distance from pool of metal objects, and I remember the holt cartoon bonding other objects besides the pool equipment... I'll come back to ask if I can't find it..

thank you

 

[ritelec]

Looking at some older closed posts...

Looks like a time clock as being suitable for motor disconnect (and as form of controller disconnect which I never thought of) has yet to be determined.

Personally I think a panel and breakers are the way to go, but explaining this to the pool guy (who's been using time clocks and probably installing several motors on one circuit for years) may be like beating a dead horse..

(i would never beat a dead horse, that wouldn't be nice)

 

[GoldDigger]

It also makes them smell bad.

Tapatalk!

 

[ritelec]

I will look through the book for distance from pool of metal objects,

680.26(7) fixed metal parts , exception No.2. ???? greater than 5' does not require bonding...
am I missing something? doesn't seem like much.

 

[Little Bill]

Thank you for the replies...

As mentioned, someone else will be relocating this..

However, I just sealed a permit for the pool man...



He's saying I should be able to put two 10 amp motors on a 30 amp breaker, and time clocks a disconnect.

So trying to explain to him.. as suggested, plan on a circuit per motor. Time clock is not considered a disconnect.


And, where might I find reference to the clock not being a disconnect?

Thank you..

As dangerous as a pool could become due to a fault of some sort, I most certainly wouldn't be pulling a permit for anyone but myself to do anything to a pool.:happysad:

As far as the motors, I believe my inspector referenced 430.24 and 430.53. As I told you before, you can have 2 or more motors on one circuit but you have to meet all the criteria mentioned in the articles.

They will work off of one circuit breaker and one set of conductors but it won't be to code unless the requirements are made. I would just read through 430 and apply your situation to what you find in 430.

One thing I remember was the inspector said the time clock didn't meet the definition of a controller and a disconnect because of (I believe) the overloads in the motor and protection in the controller had to be a listed assembly.

If it's not too late, I would cancel the permit because you will be held liable for anything that goes wrong even though you didn't do the work!:happyyes:

 

[hurk27]

Looking at some older closed posts...

Looks like a time clock as being suitable for motor disconnect (and as form of controller disconnect which I never thought of) has yet to be determined.

Personally I think a panel and breakers are the way to go, but explaining this to the pool guy (who's been using time clocks and probably installing several motors on one circuit for years) may be like beating a dead horse..

(i would never beat a dead horse, that wouldn't be nice)

Time clocks can not be used as a disconnect see 430.103 last sentence which was added to the 2008, unless they have a stay off setting that won't allow the clock to turn on the pump, also it must disconnect all ungrounded conductors.

Also correct on the fence or any other conductive items within 5' from the inside wall of the pool, any electrical equipment associated with the pool water circulating system, including pump motors and metal parts of equipment associated with pool covers, including electric motors, even the water has to be bonded now see 680.26(C) which is a new requirement and most times you already have something bonded to the EPB that also bonds the water like a pool heater.

I just mentioned the fence because I didn't know how far it was away, as well as I didn't see any EPB to the pumps, it was just a heads up to see what else wasn't done, pools can be a high liability install that we do, and care must be taken when we deal with them or they can come back and bite us if something happens.

 

[hurk27]

Looking at some older closed posts...

Looks like a time clock as being suitable for motor disconnect (and as form of controller disconnect which I never thought of) has yet to be determined.

Personally I think a panel and breakers are the way to go, but explaining this to the pool guy (who's been using time clocks and probably installing several motors on one circuit for years) may be like beating a dead horse..

(i would never beat a dead horse, that wouldn't be nice)

The disconnect has to be within sight of the equipment (680.12) sometimes hard to do with breakers, which is why many use cord and plug methods, I think the 2014 removed the requirment of it being a locking receptacle, not sure. but it is in 680.22

Does not matter it's your permit and your liability if this guy gets someone hurt, do not allow them to cover anything until you have made sure the EPB and everything else has been done to code, just like bill said, I would never allow anyone to do the work under my ticket especially a pool.

It doesn't matter how long he has gotten away with these things if it is against code it is and always has been wrong, if it kills a child who do you think they will come after, I think you already know: the person who pulled the permit.

 

[Little Bill]

Time clocks can not be used as a disconnect see 430.103 last sentence which was added to the 2008, unless they have a stay off setting that won't allow the clock to turn on the pump, also it must disconnect all ungrounded conductors.

Also correct on the fence or any other conductive items within 5' from the inside wall of the pool, any electrical equipment associated with the pool water circulating system, including pump motors and metal parts of equipment associated with pool covers, including electric motors, even the water has to be bonded now see 680.26(C) which is a new requirement and most times you already have something bonded to the EPB that also bonds the water like a pool heater.

I just mentioned the fence because I didn't know how far it was away, as well as I didn't see any EPB to the pumps, it was just a heads up to see what else wasn't done, pools can be a high liability install that we do, and care must be taken when we deal with them or they can come back and bite us if something happens.

Hurk you're correct in bringing up the EPB, I was only answering what was asked and didn't get into the bonding.

I get "anal" about the bonding when I do a pool. I probably take way longer than needed by going back over things more than once to make sure I did everything correctly.

 

[hurk27]

Hurk you're correct in bringing up the EPB, I was only answering what was asked and didn't get into the bonding.

I get "anal" about the bonding when I do a pool. I probably take way longer than needed by going back over things more than once to make sure I did everything correctly.

That's the best way to be, Forget about the liability I would not want to live with knowing something I didn't do may have harmed or killed a child or anyone for that matter, that would be tuff to live with, all in the name of saving a few buck's.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Thank you for the replies...

As mentioned, someone else will be relocating this..

However, I just sealed a permit for the pool man...

Thank you..

huh? you are pulling a permit for someone else
to do the relocation? why don't THEY pull the
permit on THEIR license?

fyi, that heater is a fossel. a new sta-rite 400k
unit will probably pay for itself the first season
in gas savings.

 

[ritelec]

SORRY for any miss understanding.

The picture and "that" job the home owners electrician will attack .

I sealed the permit for a "different" job that the pool man will be doing....


Yes, I hate that... seal the permit then give a number.... not the first time that if things aren't good I would have to go the the municipality with a letter stating change of contractor
and I am "not" responsible.

Thank you for the concern and thank you for the info......