110.26(E) Issue

[joebell]

We are starting a job where the the space used for the Main electric room is the same space where the main air duct trunk comes down through the building. The duct work branches out and is within the dedicated space of the electrical equipment ( panelboards and switchgear) being installed. The engineer was sent an RFI concerning this situation and thier solution is to construct a sheetrock ceiling as tight as possible to the duct work.

So the question is; does this newly installed sheetrock ceiling qualify as a structual ceiling to get around the duct work in the dedicated space?

 

[GoldDigger]

We are starting a job where the the space used for the Main electric room is the same space where the main air duct trunk comes down through the building. The duct work branches out and is within the dedicated space of the electrical equipment ( panelboards and switchgear) being installed. The engineer was sent an RFI concerning this situation and thier solution is to construct a sheetrock ceiling as tight as possible to the duct work.

So the question is; does this newly installed sheetrock ceiling qualify as a structual ceiling to get around the duct work in the dedicated space?

Hooboy!

We know that a dropped ceiling is specifically not a structural ceiling.
If they sheetrock is framed in heavily enough to mount boxes on either rock or framing, it could be an argument for it being structural as well as an argument that you can still do whatever you need in the remaining space.
Basically what you are describing could be alternatively described as a chase for the duct work.
The fact that the ceiling/chase surface is not readily removable does seem to differentiate it from a dropped ceiling, but I would have to say that the AHJ or an individual inspector could go either way. Want to make a bet?
I do not see any practical way to change the layout at this point without spending a lot of money, so I would hope for the best.

Do you foresee any actual problems in this case with the dedicated space incursion, in terms of future wiring, etc?

 

[Canton]

We are starting a job where the the space used for the Main electric room is the same space where the main air duct trunk comes down through the building. The duct work branches out and is within the dedicated space of the electrical equipment ( panelboards and switchgear) being installed. The engineer was sent an RFI concerning this situation and thier solution is to construct a sheetrock ceiling as tight as possible to the duct work.

So the question is; does this newly installed sheetrock ceiling qualify as a structual ceiling to get around the duct work in the dedicated space?

AHHH....I love the old trying to pull a fast one....I believe technically it would be compliant. This is a ridiculous article with to many exceptions. They first say in 110.26(E)1(a) that no "Foreign Systems" shall be installed in the dedicated area....then they say that it can contain if protection is provided. So fill it up with all kinds of piping and then slap a drip pan in there to be compliant and we now have no dedicated space...:blink:

I say put the framing up and cover with drywall....now you have a new structural ceiling....love it:thumbsup:

 

[cowboyjwc]

I would agree that it's really pushing the boundaries, but I would say that it would comply.

 

[joebell]

I thought along those same lines. I recommended getting the AHJ involved sooner rather than latter. One of the biggest issues with the design is the amount of 4" EMT that needs to be installed in this area. we are already losing a bunch of space due to the duct work and now with the addition of the sheetrock ceiling we will be losing that much more.

 

[Canton]

I thought along those same lines. I recommended getting the AHJ involved sooner rather than latter. One of the biggest issues with the design is the amount of 4" EMT that needs to be installed in this area. we are already losing a bunch of space due to the duct work and now with the addition of the sheetrock ceiling we will be losing that much more.

I assume your worried about not having enough clearance for the radius of the 4" (90's)...? Can you put a shallow header box on the gear and bring your pipes straight in instead of 90ing down into the gear?

 

[joebell]

AHHH....I love the old trying to pull a fast one....I believe technically it would be compliant. This is a ridiculous article with to many exceptions. They first say in 110.26(E)1(a) that no "Foreign Systems" shall be installed in the dedicated area....then they say that it can contain if protection is provided. So fill it up with all kinds of piping and then slap a drip pan in there to be compliant and we now have no dedicated space...:

I do not read it that way, 110.26(E)(1)(a) says nothing is allowed in the dedicated space. 110.26(E)(1)(b) allows foreign systems to be above the dedicated space as long as it is installed to prevent damage to the electrical equipment below.:thumbsup:

 

[joebell]

I assume your worried about not having enough clearance for the radius of the 4" (90's)...? Can you put a shallow header box on the gear and bring your pipes straight in instead of 90ing down into the gear?

you are correct sir!!!

 

[joebell]

I also look at 110.26(E)(1)(d) and do not believe the new ceiling qualifies as a structural simply by the langage of this section.

(d) Suspended Ceilings. A dropped, suspended, or
similar ceiling that does not add strength to the building
structure shall not be considered a structural ceiling.

 

[Canton]

I do not read it that way, 110.26(E)(1)(a) says nothing is allowed in the dedicated space. 110.26(E)(1)(b) allows foreign systems to be above the dedicated space as long as it is installed to prevent damage to the electrical equipment below.:thumbsup:

Yes, your are correct, but what do you not read the same?...we are saying the same thing...what do you think protection would be from drips, leaks, condensation...? Drip Pans is the answer. Dedicated space ABOVE becomes not so dedicated.

 

[Canton]

I also look at 110.26(E)(1)(d) and do not believe the new ceiling qualifies as a structural simply by the langage of this section.

(d) Suspended Ceilings. A dropped, suspended, or
similar ceiling that does not add strength to the building
structure shall not be considered a structural ceiling.

What do you think the structural ceiling is in a residence or a wood framed commercial building? Framing and drywall. The same thing that you would install below your duct.

 

[Canton]

you are correct sir!!!

I have used header boxes on gear a lot for your exact situation. Saves a lot of time also with not having to deal with bending 90's.

 

[joebell]

Yes, your are correct, but what do you not read the same?...we are saying the same thing...what do you think protection would be from drips, leaks, condensation...? Drip Pans is the answer. Dedicated space ABOVE becomes not so dedicated.

So I guess the way I read it is if your structural ceiling is lower than 6' nothing is permitted in the space above the equipment. If you have more than 6' above the equipment then the foreign systems are allowed above the 6' space. the drip pan and / or foreign system are not allowed in the 6' space.

 

[GoldDigger]

So I guess the way I read it is if your structural ceiling is lower than 6' nothing is permitted in the space above the equipment. If you have more than 6' above the equipment then the foreign systems are allowed above the 6' space. the drip pan and / or foreign system are not allowed in the 6' space.

:thumbsup:

Tapatalk!

 

[Canton]

So I guess the way I read it is if your structural ceiling is lower than 6' nothing is permitted in the space above the equipment. If you have more than 6' above the equipment then the foreign systems are allowed above the 6' space. the drip pan and / or foreign system are not allowed in the 6' space.

Yes and No...."the space equal to the width and depth of the equipment and extending from the floor to a height of 6' above the equipment OR to the structural ceiling"

Yes, if you have more than 6' above the equipment then you can have foreign systems (with protection)

You are essentially lowering the structural ceiling which would "ALLOW" the Existing duct to be there....funny:lol:

 

[joebell]

What do you think the structural ceiling is in a residence or a wood framed commercial building? Framing and drywall. The same thing that you would install below your duct.

I could argue that according to the language in 110.26(E)(1)(d), the drywall ceiling is not adding to the building strength and by definition is not considered a structual ceiling. I would contend that the framing in your examples may qualify as adding strength to the building and could be considered a structural ceiling.

 

[Canton]

I could argue that according to the language in 110.26(E)(1)(d), the drywall ceiling is not adding to the building strength and by definition is not considered a structual ceiling. I would contend that the framing in your examples may qualify as adding strength to the building and could be considered a structural ceiling.

True, I will agree with you that this arguable. I believe it adds strength to the building because it will be able to support loads (Boxes, lights, conduit, maybe even strut with your 4" Emt). Does it help support the 6"-8" thick concrete floor above? I don't think so. This is where the terminology and clarification should be made a little clearer in the code article.

 

[GoldDigger]

I would also propose that a ceiling (or finish) that adds to the fire resistance of the ceiling adds to integrity of the ceiling even if it does not add to the mechanical strength of that ceiling.

Tapatalk!

 

[joebell]

True, I will agree with you that this arguable. I believe it adds strength to the building because it will be able to support loads (Boxes, lights, conduit, maybe even strut with your 4" Emt). Does it help support the 6"-8" thick concrete floor above? I don't think so. This is where the terminology and clarification should be made a little clearer in the code article.

I don't think because it can support loads such as lights and junction boxes qualifiy it as structural or adding strength. You can put lights and boxes in a suspended ceiling.

I appreciate the dialogue it is really good to go back and forth and get other opinions and thoughts.

 

[joebell]

I would also propose that a ceiling (or finish) that adds to the fire resistance of the ceiling adds to integrity of the ceiling even if it does not add to the mechanical strength of that ceiling.

Tapatalk!

I would buy that, If it is indeed designed as a fire rated assembly ,I would agree that it could be considered structural. If it is designed as nothing more than a chase to hide, or work around a potential clearence issue then I would not.

just my opinion of course