60Hz vs 50Hz

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cabman

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Liberty MO
What are the main differences between 60Hz and 50Hz? Do they just turn the generators a little slower to achieve 50Hz as opposed to 60Hz? I know a lot of equipment is rated for both, and equipment that is rated for one or the other is not interchangeable, but I'm really just asking out of curiosity.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
V=NBA(omega)

omega drops 17%, weight of transformers and motors goes up by 17% (and cost also, though not quite by 17%)

or, power of motor of same size drops 17%.

Bigger caps needed for PFC

higher ripple on rectifiers

core losses for transformers drops by about 17%, but I^2*R rises some due longer winding (more turns or larger core)

longer bearing life on non vfd motors

etc, etc....

PS: re: just asking out of curiosity; or, was this a question on a test, seems a lot of first posters this weekend with similar type questions ?

PPS: new aircraft such as 787 use 380Hz to 800Hz, depending on the engine speed. Why is that? IF you fold all of the above together (and CSD cost) you will have the answer <G>
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
Do they just turn the generators a little slower to achieve 50Hz as opposed to 60Hz?
The frequency that a generator puts out depends on the speed of rotation and the number of poles within the windings. The speed is the easier thing to control.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
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North of the 65 parallel
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EE (Field - as little design as possible)
What are the main differences between 60Hz and 50Hz? Do they just turn the generators a little slower to achieve 50Hz as opposed to 60Hz? I know a lot of equipment is rated for both, and equipment that is rated for one or the other is not interchangeable, but I'm really just asking out of curiosity.

50Hz generators turn 1500 RPM instead of 1800
50Hz motors turn 1500 RPM insted of 1800 RPM
A motor rated at 460V, 60Hz, 1750 RPM will run just fine at 380V, 50hz, 1460 RPM

Transmission line losses are a bit less at 50Hz (at 60Hz slightly bigger conductors are needed for the same load)

The math is a bit easier -
1 cycle at 60 hz = 16.66666666... miliseconds
1 cycle at 50Hz = 20 miliseconds

I suspect Westinghouse and Tesla, Steinmetz and GE (Edison) settled on 60 Hz because they could get a bit more power out of the equipment and transmission distances were comparatively short.

ice
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
What are the main differences between 60Hz and 50Hz? Do they just turn the generators a little slower to achieve 50Hz as opposed to 60Hz? I know a lot of equipment is rated for both, and equipment that is rated for one or the other is not interchangeable, but I'm really just asking out of curiosity.
Nah!!
They turn them faster to get 60 Hz..................:p
 

Jraef

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San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
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Electrical Engineer
There was no single conscious engineering decsion that went into chosing 60Hz vs 50Hz, it was economic. Long distance distribution of AC started in Europe with AEG, a partner of GE/Edison, using 50Hz for transmission, but was used as DC for the most part. But Edison insisted on promoting DC over here for too long because he wanted to keep it under his control. When AC took off here in spite of his efforts, everybody had their own ideas of frequency, because most early systems were converting steam engines or water turbines so the speed of the prime mover was already in place. So hardly anyone matched; there was 10Hz, 25Hz, 33-1/3Hz, 40, 50, 60, 133, etc.etc.. When GE got into it, they settled on 40Hz at first because Edison's research on flicker for moving pictures showed that's where the human eye starts to not react. Westinghouse was selling 133Hz arc lighting sysyems, but that was too fast for Teslas motor technology at the time, so they settled on 60Hz as a compromize between Tesla's original 25Hz motor designs and lamp flicker. However Westinghouse was way ahead of the game with Tesla's AC motors, so when they changed to 60Hz motors, people started ordering 60Hz generators. Edison first tried to get people to use 50Hz by bringing in AEG generators, but it was too late, Westinghouse had the drop on him by virtue of shear volume of production. When standardization came about later, there was such a pronderance of 60Hz motors out there and it would have cost too much already forbpeople to change so it dominated the process.
 
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Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
V=NBA(omega)

omega drops 17%, weight of transformers and motors goes up by 17% (and cost also, though not quite by 17%)

or, power of motor of same size drops 17%.
No disagreement with that.

Bigger caps needed for PFC
Lower uF at 60Hz
So, you may have a smaller capacitor but it is required to handle the same current for the same kVA

higher ripple on rectifiers
The amplitude stays the same. The frequency is different.
 

keith gigabyte

Senior Member
25 cycle

25 cycle

Yea i call it 25 cycle..I started out with 60 hz then worked in a furnace coke plant that had 25hz and 60 hz. but the old timers..oh I'm one now..called it cycle..
Yes 25 hz definitely causes incandescent lights to flicker. Many of our (smaller) 600 amp and smaller..distribution panels and disconnects were only marked with voltage. when tieing in a new circuit or something like that we would use our wiggy testers and listen to the vibration..slow we knew 25 cycle.
25 cycle motors are different than 60 cycle...rpm and shaft size being major differences.

Back to original question..agree with others the number of poles and rpm of armature determine hz. Dc exciter (armature) voltage regulates output voltage.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Yea i call it 25 cycle..I started out with 60 hz then worked in a furnace coke plant that had 25hz and 60 hz. but the old timers..oh I'm one now..called it cycle..
Yes 25 hz definitely causes incandescent lights to flicker. Many of our (smaller) 600 amp and smaller..distribution panels and disconnects were only marked with voltage. when tieing in a new circuit or something like that we would use our wiggy testers and listen to the vibration..slow we knew 25 cycle.
25 cycle motors are different than 60 cycle...rpm and shaft size being major differences.

Back to original question..agree with others the number of poles and rpm of armature determine hz. Dc exciter (armature) voltage regulates output voltage.


What was the difference in the 25 and 60hz motors? The 25hz were double the size for horsepower?











For the same capacitor size in microfarads and the same DC load in amps, the amplitude of the ripple voltage is reduced because the voltage drop from peak on the capacitor is lower.

Tapatalk!

Hadnt thought of that! Good point!:happyyes:






50 vs 60 hz is big wonder for me. I rarely deal with 50hz, everything I was taught centered around 60. From a transmission stand point what is more efficient, 50 or 60? I know transformers need bigger cores but how do line inductance, skin effect, resistive losses ect differ?


Fun fact, Ive had several engineers tell me that if we were to use 140Hz or higher for power transmission losses would be greater from skin effect as well as phase to ground capacitances values being higher hence more capacitive losses... right?:dunce:
 

keith gigabyte

Senior Member
mbrooke

mbrooke

the 25 hz motors are not sized for tourque/power or anything like that..the plant and neighboring plants were orginally steam driven. Once electricity was used in industry, dc 25hz 6o hz and I think a couple other frequencies were used..the owner figured 25 hz would be the norm so he wired his plants to 25 hz.It is just a carry over..too costly to retrofit all 25cycle systems to 60 hz many; many motors..changing the motors are not the problem..finding a 60 hz motor to fit..rpm ..frame size/configuration etc. it was easier to keep the in-house generators pumping out 25 hz. Not proven but based on my observations the 25 hz motors seem to have better starting torque.

Still use the dc for speed control in crane and similar applications
 
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