When to get/not get a Permit?

[Ragin Cajun]

We have several industrial and large commercial clients who brought up this question. When should (or not) they get a permit for internal work such as upgrading/moving/installing new equipment, adding/moving/deleting a partition, installing new light fixtures/ceilings on a regular schedule in product display areas, and similar internal work that doesn't involve major structural, etc.???

They have their own internal crafts personnel for civil, HVAC, piping, electrical instrumentation, etc. that are capable and typically one or more plant engineers doing some of the design.

When I was a plant engineer we did this sort of work all the time without permits. The only time we did get permits was when we broke ground for major civil/structural work, and even then I don?t recall any inspections except when we put in a mobile home type building for the credit union.

I asked the local electrical inspector and he said that they would like to be involved to be sure the work was done properly. But he acknowledged that this type of work has been going on without permits since the dark ages. What they don?t ?see? they don?t know something is going on. Note, the inspectors here are not anal but do a good job. Only occasionally have I had issues with small town AHJ's.

What's the situation in your area? I would like to give some form of reply to our clients that will give them something to hand their hats on.

Thanks,

RC

 

[iwire]

In my area industrial and commercial sites that have electricians can pull a yearly maintenance permit which covers repairs only.

Any new installation is required by law to get a specific permit and inspection.

Yes, it is often ignored but that does not change the rules.

 

[mgookin]

Pretty much the same here as iwire says.
Annual facility permits are available.
Reality is that they (almost) never get them.

From a liability standpoint, I'd suggest you get the permit. That way if something goes wrong you don't have an ambulance chasing attorney saying you neglected to get a permit and inspections.

Specific permits are almost always obtained when changing a service. POCO won't connect the new service without the OK sticker from the inspector.

 

[Fulthrotl]

What's the situation in your area? I would like to give some form of reply to our clients that will give them something to hand their hats on.

Thanks,

RC

almost never permitted in industrial or heavy commercial work....
even stuff visible outside the plant... no permits. they just put it in. :ashamed1:

most notable one i've seen recently, was a 3,200 sq. ft. steel quonset
hut, on a freshly poured slab, with 18" footings..... and fire sprinklers.
it's galvanized, shines like the noonday sun, and is visible from the road.

no permits. go figure. nobody seems to notice.

 

[augie47]

Yes to all of the above
It's going to depend on how the system is set-up in your area.
In most of the local areas with which I am familiar, as noted in one of the posts above, the industrial guys have done whatever since the dark ages (go figure..meanwhile we fret over box-fill on a residential job).
I see permits (a) when a service needs to be energized and/or (b) when a contractor wants an inspection for liability purposes.
In some of the municipalities there are programs set up to license plant personnel and perform routine inspections.
If your situation allows permits to be obtained, i always tell folks in the event of a
incident would you rather end up in court saying "we didn't bother with an inspection" or "we had it inspected", but it all boils down to how your AHJ approaches the issue.
(In TN, as far as areas inspected by the State (only)..only a contractor can pull a permit so there is no
arrangement for plant personnel to get an inspection)

 

[north star]

~ ~ & ~ ~

Ragin',

In the areas where your clients are located, I recommend that you, or a
representative of your company, to contact each AHJ, ...to ask specifically
if permits are required........It would be a very good thing to get their
responses in writing as well ! :happyyes:

Yes, ...you may open a can of worms that you had not planned to open, but
at least you [ and your clients ] will know for certain, one way or the other !

~ ~ & ~ ~

 

[__dan]

In Ct, direct employees who work directly for the company on its own property, in regular maintenance jobs, are exempt from licensing and may sign permits with no license, as long as the work is for the company and not for sale by the company to others.

Otherwise, licenses and license holder signature on the permit are required AFAIK.

There are annual blanket permits for large facilities which require a record of what was done and periodic inspections, fee payment.

Enforcement seems to go with use type. If you are a brothel or adult bookstore opening on Main St., there will be a crowd down there with chains and padlocks for your doors with a stream of press articles where they congratulate themselves on how many people they mustered to shut that bookstore down. Same for low income housing or residential land subdivision, it is against the law (they will find one you are breaking or write one for you while you wait). Large taxpayers who don't send kids to the public schools, threatening population growth, can do pretty much whatever they want. Build it and litigate it at the same time.

 

[elf friend]

In Wi we need to get an anuall permit for each facilty which runs about $100. This cover most of what is done inside the plant. This permit also list all jorneymen and master electricians that are working there at the time the permit was pulled.

 

[iwire]

In Ct, direct employees who work directly for the company on its own property, in regular maintenance jobs, are exempt from licensing and may sign permits with no license, as long as the work is for the company and not for sale by the company to others.

.

Any chance you could link to that rule or law?

Sounds odd to me.

 

[__dan]

CGS 20-340 (6)

is what I see, did not read them all. "Any person" may also pull the permit as owner or owner's agent. However, they have to be licensed to offer electrical work to the customer (operate as an electrical contractor).

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/chap393.htm#Sec20-340.htm

Also posting this because it's hard to find and I have a bookmark for it.

http://www.ct.gov/dcp/lib/dcp/dcp_regulations/20-332_occupational_licensing.pdf

 

[tsamples]

Why not?

Why not?

In this litigious world why would an industrial plant not want to get permits. For the relatively low cost they are offered some protection in the case of an incident. Companies are getting sued for millions when an employee gets shocked or burned.

 

[kwired]

almost never permitted in industrial or heavy commercial work....
even stuff visible outside the plant... no permits. they just put it in. :ashamed1:

most notable one i've seen recently, was a 3,200 sq. ft. steel quonset
hut, on a freshly poured slab, with 18" footings..... and fire sprinklers.
it's galvanized, shines like the noonday sun, and is visible from the road.

no permits. go figure. nobody seems to notice.

Big difference in metro areas vs rural areas - the metro area likely has multiple inspectors and they all just figure someone else got that site.

Rural area, there is usually only one inspector - if he sees something new he knows if it is not in his paperwork, there was no permit.

 

[stew]

In our State nearly all work is required to have a permit of some kind. Very few exceptions. Conditions yes, exceptions No.

 

[hurk27]

In Indiana, the state treats industrial facilities as their own self governing self controlling unit, they figure that the liabilities, insurance and OSHA will keep them in check for the most part, and in most cases it does, even with the fact companies here are protected from lawsuits from employee's under the don't bite the hand that feeds you rule, here if we are injured on the job our Workman's comp has set amounts that the company has to pay us depending upon the damage to our body, and let me tell ya, its so ridicules, but as has been prove, out right failures to provide a safe work environment can open the door back up for law suits.

But almost all industrial sites with their own trained maintenance workers are exempt from permit, license's, and inspections, and if something that can be inspected is done then only the state can do such inspections, even when we have outside contractors there are no inspections or permits.