Hot Tub Illustration...

[1793]

I would like to know if someone would be so kind as to help me find an illustration showing the bonding of surrounding metal with regard to a Hot Tub.

I have a customer who is having a room built off the back of the house, a prefabricated unit that is mostly glass. I told him that all the metal within 5 feet would have to be bonded to the Hot Tub. I'm to meet with the Sun Room folks this Saturday and I would like to have some ammo, if needed to support my position. I'm citing 680.40(D)(4) as my concern.

As always,
Thanks in advance

 

[M. D.]

Not sure it will help .. If it's a room is it outside ?

 

[1793]

I made a mistake, I should have said, 680.43(D)(4)

 

[M. D.]

All the metal doesn't need to be bonded .. What year code are you under ?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

All the metal doesn't need to be bonded .. What year code are you under ?

IMO the 2011 does require the metal surfaces to be bonded. That includes metal windows and doors etc. I think it is absolutely absurd but that is how I see it.

 

[1793]

All the metal doesn't need to be bonded .. What year code are you under ?

We are currently under 2011.

 

[1793]

IMO the 2011 does require the metal surfaces to be bonded. That includes metal windows and doors etc. I think it is absolutely absurd but that is how I see it.

Ditto

 

[kwired]

Do you have metal framing to this sun room as well? If just metal clad windows/doors installed in insulating materials, I understand code doesn't necessarily exclude them, but if they are attached to metal framing that gives you even more conductive area to become a potential problem.

Though a door or window doesn't seem like it should be a problem - remember we are not "grounding" it, we are "bonding" it to our equipotential network, so that all metal objects are at the same potential. Should the spa EGC have an elevated voltage above ground for any reason, should the door or window become grounded somehow (and just dirt and moisture can provide some continuity toward achieving this) but not connected to the equipotential grounding network around the tub, then users are exposed to that voltage.

 

[M. D.]

from 2011 nec
(4) (D)
Exception: Small conductive surfaces not likely to become
energized, such as air and water jets and drain ?ttings,
where not connected to metallic piping, towel bars, mirror
frames, and similar nonelectrical equipment, shall not be
required to be bonded.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

from 2011 nec
(4) (D)
Exception: Small conductive surfaces not likely to become
energized, such as air and water jets and drain ?ttings,
where not connected to metallic piping, towel bars, mirror
frames, and similar nonelectrical equipment, shall not be
required to be bonded.

So how would a metal frame of doors and windows be considered small?

 

[M. D.]

So how would a metal frame of doors and windows be considered small?

I'm not sure small is a condition. How big can a mirror frame be ? or the "towel bar" or "similar non-electrical equipment" be ?

towel bars, mirror
frames, and similar nonelectrical equipment, shall not be
required to be bonded.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I'm not sure small is a condition. How big can a mirror frame be ? or the "towel bar" or "similar non-electrical equipment" be ?

towel bars, mirror
frames, and similar nonelectrical equipment, shall not be
required to be bonded.

I think the intent is to say that metal objects hung nearby that are not part of the structure we need not worry about. Certainly can be worded better. I think you can have a large mirror and not have to bond it but a metal structure - IMO that needs bonding.

 

[kwired]

I'm not sure small is a condition. How big can a mirror frame be ? or the "towel bar" or "similar non-electrical equipment" be ?

towel bars, mirror
frames, and similar nonelectrical equipment, shall not be
required to be bonded.

Go back a little further in your own quote - the word small is in there - in fact it is the first word in the exception. What it doesn't do is set a limit on what exactly is "small".

 

[M. D.]

The op indicated all .i would bind the frame of the room if within 5'.

 

[jap]

My brothers and sisters used to drag their feet across the carpet and then reach towards me and the static electricity would jump from them to me and shock me.
That is until I got wise and before we walked into the carpeted room, I'd reach out and hold their hand and they never got the chance to shock me because we became one, since we were "Bonded" together.(No Difference of Potential).

Although while walking together holding hands , when we got close to something that was grounded, one or the other of us would still get shocked,since it wasnt bonded to us.
Since there was a difference of potential between us and that item.

If we were holding onto it to begin with, it would be very unlikely to throw a spark to us, since we would be at the same potential.

Thats how some fuel pump fires start.
you pull up and step out and there may be a static charge on your car since its insuated sitting on rubber tires insulated from its surroundings.
as soon as the nozzle or you make contact with the car to ground there could possibly be a spark that would ignite the fuel.

I always touch the pump and the car to drain off any unsuspected static voltage before I ever even star to remove the nozzle, and try to stay at the same potential as the pump.

But thats just me.

JAP.

 

[GoldDigger]

Well, it seems to have worked for you so far!

Tapatalk!

 

[kwired]

My brothers and sisters used to drag their feet across the carpet and then reach towards me and the static electricity would jump from them to me and shock me.
That is until I got wise and before we walked into the carpeted room, I'd reach out and hold their hand and they never got the chance to shock me because we became one, since we were "Bonded" together.(No Difference of Potential).

Although while walking together holding hands , when we got close to something that was grounded, one or the other of us would still get shocked,since it wasnt bonded to us.
Since there was a difference of potential between us and that item.

If we were holding onto it to begin with, it would be very unlikely to throw a spark to us, since we would be at the same potential.

Thats how some fuel pump fires start.
you pull up and step out and there may be a static charge on your car since its insuated sitting on rubber tires insulated from its surroundings.
as soon as the nozzle or you make contact with the car to ground there could possibly be a spark that would ignite the fuel.

I always touch the pump and the car to drain off any unsuspected static voltage before I ever even star to remove the nozzle, and try to stay at the same potential as the pump.

But thats just me.

JAP.

That static charge in the car is not as big of a problem as it once was - most of today's tires are conductive enough to drain any charge.

Besides you generally are standing on the ground and touch your car to open the filler opening, then are still standing on the ground when you grab the fill nozzle and likely discharge both when you do so, but it certainly doesn't hurt to go through the little extra effort.

Though the dispenser nozzle is likely well grounded and if anything you discharge yourself when you touch it.

 

[jap]

When I was small me and about 14 other kids and 4 sets of parents were all holding hands saying a prayer for the rain to stop before a church hayride, and I was on the very end.
We were all wet and standing on wet ground with our heads bowed, when I noticed an active electric fenceline within my reach.
I looked down the line of people trying to contemplate whether what I was about to do would be worth it or not before I reached out and grabbed ahold of it.
conditions must have been just right for some reason since the jolt went all the way down the line.

Funny thing is that once they figured out what had happened they all wanted to line up and do it again.
i havent been able to duplicate that scenario since then.

Thats where I got my first lesson on "Bonding".

 

[kwired]

When I was small me and about 14 other kids and 4 sets of parents were all holding hands saying a prayer for the rain to stop before a church hayride, and I was on the very end.
We were all wet and standing on wet ground with our heads bowed, when I noticed an active electric fenceline within my reach.
I looked down the line of people trying to contemplate whether what I was about to do would be worth it or not before I reached out and grabbed ahold of it.
conditions must have been just right for some reason since the jolt went all the way down the line.

Funny thing is that once they figured out what had happened they all wanted to line up and do it again.
i havent been able to duplicate that scenario since then.

Thats where I got my first lesson on "Bonding".

I hope you tried to say it was an answer from God since the group was after all asking him to do something - before they figured it out:happyyes:

 

[jap]

I hope you tried to say it was an answer from God since the group was after all asking him to do something - before they figured it out:happyyes:

A couple of them did scream Hallalujiah!!! when it took place.