Old house, Old wires, Major headach

[milemaker13]

Good morning,
I went to a co-workers house last night to look at his light problem. He doesn't speak any english, but his younger brother was there to translate. From what I gather, he smelled/saw some smoke from some basement connection... from there he proceeded to pull down all of the wire in the basement j-boxes. Old, tar and cloth stuff thats been there 100 yrs if a day, so naturally its all busted up and split... NFG.

So now there are a couple rooms with no lights, and a bedroom with no outlets or lights. Now that I have a ceiling fixture box tied back together, I show 92 volts on my meter but if I turn on the light switch (or plug in to that bedroom )the voltage drops to near zero.

I think it is a neutral problem?? But with all these frayed wires, boxes with no lock nuts, old flex going into the walls, ect (you know this house, lol), how do you even begin to trouble shoot the problem?

And further, how do you charge someone for work like this? I mean, it could so easilly turn into a whole house re-wire. But I don't want to turn him away.. he is the janitor guy with his wife and 3 girls at home.

How do you guys handle these situations? I figure on very carefully "fixing " all his torn up basement boxes, replaceing what I can. Then seeing where we are at with the actuall problem.

:?

 

[Ponchik]

It is a delicate situation.

Depending on what you see and what the condition of the wiring, you must decide either to walk away or repair it. People now days are very sue happy, if you repair it and something else happens that may or may not be related to your repair then you may be defending yourself in the courts.

In these situations (again depending on the age of the wiring) I either walk away or rewire.

Good luck.

 

[north star]

( ~ ~ )

Who actually owns the house ?.........Agree with **edward** about people being
"suit happy".......If it is not his house [ i.e. - does he have a mortgage or is he
paying rent ], ...then you should not be doing anything to it !

Trying to, and actually being willing to help someone is an very admirable quality,
but, ...you DO need to know your level of financial & legal exposure BEFORE you
start a project like this.

If the guy is paying rent, then explain clearly to him that you simply cannot
[ legally ] touch anything on the premises.......That would be an issue between
him and his landlord \ property owner........If, on the other hand, ...he has a
mortgage, then you could consider this a ministry opportunity, if the guy will
buy all of the materials, or help buy all of the needed materials......You go get
a permit for all of the work, and then ...git after it !

( ~ ~ )

 

[milemaker13]

Yes, he does own the house. I asked. I told him to seriously consider a complete re-wire.. but of course easier said than done (and paid for).

I agree with all your points.. especially assuming liability for the rest of the house. I also don't want to get stuck there for two weeks doing charity work.

I would like to at least help him get the boxes he messed up back together, slip heat shrink over the wires, re-connect them, lock rings on boxes ect, but then I need to fix everything along the way or worry about it...

I am trying to find another guy on craigs list in his area to help him. Pass the buck!

 

[kwired]

As far as your voltage issue sounds like you maybe have loads in series with other loads, adding additional loads changes the resistance of a portion of the circuit and that is why the voltage is changing - you have the bulk of the circuit resistance in a different portion of the series is why it drops to near zero.

 

[milemaker13]

But only a single light bulb pulls it down from 92 volts to 1 or 2 volts. Light switch off, 92 volts. Light switch on, 2 volts.

Other strange things as well, hard to keep track but at one point (not sure if I had something disconnected or??) with the switch off I had 75 volts, switch on 2 volts.


How would I show 75 volts while the switch was off? Omg, my head is spinning!

 

[kwired]

But only a single light bulb pulls it down from 92 volts to 1 or 2 volts. Light switch off, 92 volts. Light switch on, 2 volts.

Other strange things as well, hard to keep track but at one point (not sure if I had something disconnected or??) with the switch off I had 75 volts, switch on 2 volts.


How would I show 75 volts while the switch was off? Omg, my head is spinning!

What points of the circuit were you measuring voltage between? If you completely figure that one out - you may actually see the problem.

If the single light bulb is in series with a higher resistance the majority of the voltage drop will be across the higher resistance, but your single light bulb also has to be in parallel with some other load or you will have full voltage when the switch is open instead of 75 volts. You are just changing the total resistance of a portion of the series when you insert your light bulb into the circuit.

 

[K8MHZ]

Strange voltage readings is why I don't suggest using a DVOM for troubleshooting unless the user is very familiar with the limitations of a high impedance meter.

 

[growler]

Good morning,
I went to a co-workers house last night to look at his light problem. He doesn't speak any english, but his younger brother was there to translate. From what I gather, he smelled/saw some smoke from some basement connection... from there he proceeded to pull down all of the wire in the basement j-boxes. Old, tar and cloth stuff thats been there 100 yrs if a day, so naturally its all busted up and split... NFG.

So now there are a couple rooms with no lights, and a bedroom with no outlets or lights. Now that I have a ceiling fixture box tied back together, I show 92 volts on my meter but if I turn on the light switch (or plug in to that bedroom )the voltage drops to near zero.

I think it is a neutral problem?? But with all these frayed wires, boxes with no lock nuts, old flex going into the walls, ect (you know this house, lol), how do you even begin to trouble shoot the problem?

And further, how do you charge someone for work like this? I mean, it could so easilly turn into a whole house re-wire. But I don't want to turn him away.. he is the janitor guy with his wife and 3 girls at home.

How do you guys handle these situations? I figure on very carefully "fixing " all his torn up basement boxes, replaceing what I can. Then seeing where we are at with the actuall problem.

The easiest way to deal with this is to figure out how many circuits you are dealing with. Once you know the number of circuits then work on them one at a time and work from the panel out and make sure everything is good at each junction box.

One thing, this old wire is often not as bad as you think if there is extra length and the outer sheath can be cut back to expose newer wire.

Once he started to pull apart the wiring he may have created a larger problem than really existed. You need to decide if you really want to spend the time necessary to do the job right.

 

[PetrosA]

If he owns the house, then I would look into the option of getting a group of electricians from work together, getting the guy to pay what he can afford (to cover some of the materials) and rewire the place as a form of charity. Maybe your employer would donate some materials? Five or six guys should be able to get the bulk of it done during a few Saturdays, and you can all go home knowing that this guy and his family will be safe. Anything else is a risk. At the least, get a decent panel in there and get all those old circuits on AFCI or GFCI breakers for safety.

 

[K8MHZ]

Here is what the OP is up against. I have been there. Well, not at that house, but in similar situations.

The reason the customer owns a home with 100 year old wiring is usually because they can't afford anything else. So, if the wiring gets fixed properly, either the fixer or the owner is going to get stuck financially. This is a no win situation unless you are willing to do some or most of the work as charity.

I do charity work. Not all the time, but when I see a real need that involves a person's safety and that person just has no money to pay, I have a little voice inside me reminding me that a person's life is worth more than money or even a couple hours of my time.

I have also done charity work and got paid for it. An EC I work for is one of these heart of gold guys. He has sent me on jobs that he wasn't going to charge for and paid me to do the work. Of course, I cut him some slack on my pay.

The OP is also up against chasing rabbits. By that I mean that a repair in one place will reveal a problem in another and this could go on and on and on.

So, if the OP plain does not want to do charity work, this sounds like a job to walk away from......but it sounds like he already started on it.

As for the troubleshooting part, I would love to help. Troubleshooting is my thing and I have been in dozens of 100 year old houses and have seen things. I also know how cobble jobs and bad insulation can 'trick' test equipment, so I have an assortment of test devices, some home made, in my 'Voo Doo' box.

I wish the OP was closer. I would offer to help for some gas money and maybe a six pack of cheap beer.

 

[K8MHZ]

If he owns the house, then I would look into the option of getting a group of electricians from work together, getting the guy to pay what he can afford (to cover some of the materials) and rewire the place as a form of charity. Maybe your employer would donate some materials? Five or six guys should be able to get the bulk of it done during a few Saturdays, and you can all go home knowing that this guy and his family will be safe. Anything else is a risk. At the least, get a decent panel in there and get all those old circuits on AFCI or GFCI breakers for safety.

That's a good idea. Maybe the local Habitat for Humanity would offer to coordinate and do paperwork so the EC's and sparky's get tax deductions for their work. They may even offer to kick in some money for materials.

 

[Barbqranch]

If not Habitat for Humanity, maybe some other charitable or government agency. In my area there is a group call Rebuilding Together that does this sort of thing.

 

[ActionDave]

But only a single light bulb pulls it down from 92 volts to 1 or 2 volts. Light switch off, 92 volts. Light switch on, 2 volts.

Other strange things as well, hard to keep track but at one point (not sure if I had something disconnected or??) with the switch off I had 75 volts, switch on 2 volts.


How would I show 75 volts while the switch was off? Omg, my head is spinning!

Toss out your digital meter unless you are very adept at trouble shooting with it. Get a wiggy and an extension cord plugged into a properly wired recpt, put one in at the service panel if you have to. Use that to test the wires in the ceiling box so you can be sure what wire is what. Mystery wire A to hot slot, to neutral slot, to egc slot, repeat with mystery wire B.....

 

[ActionDave]

If not Habitat for Humanity, maybe some other charitable or government agency. In my area there is a group call Rebuilding Together that does this sort of thing.

That would be a better choice. Habitat for Humanity focuses almost exclusively on new construction, at least the chapters I have worked with.

 

[stevenje]

That's a good idea. Maybe the local Habitat for Humanity would offer to coordinate and do paperwork so the EC's and sparky's get tax deductions for their work. They may even offer to kick in some money for materials.

Our company helped wire two new Habitat for Humanity homes last year. According to my CPA and the IRS, any labor donated to the project is not tax deductible, but materials donated are.

 

[John120/240]

Our company helped wire two new Habitat for Humanity homes last year. According to my CPA and the IRS, any labor donated to the project is not tax deductible, but materials donated are.

The satisfaction that you get is priceless.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Toss out your digital meter unless you are very adept at trouble shooting with it. Get a wiggy and an extension cord plugged into a properly wired recpt, put one in at the service panel if you have to. Use that to test the wires in the ceiling box so you can be sure what wire is what. Mystery wire A to hot slot, to neutral slot, to egc slot, repeat with mystery wire B.....

As cumbersome as this may seem for those who haven't really waded into a wiring tangle as the OP describes, this approach is just plain GOLD. It takes a little time to set up, and the beginning is the slowest part, but it speeds up quickly as one begins to see the patterns of the old circuits.

 

[kwired]

Our company helped wire two new Habitat for Humanity homes last year. According to my CPA and the IRS, any labor donated to the project is not tax deductible, but materials donated are.

Business expenses are reductions to income. If you purchase materials you reduce that amount from your net income, when you sell them you increase your net income by the amount you sold them for. If you purchase items and never sell them (ie. donate them) you have expense that is never reimbursed and therefore is naturally deducted without any extra procedures.

Same goes for labor from employees. If you are paying them that pay is an expense that reduces your income, as well as associated payroll taxes, insurance, etc. Now your own labor may be trickier, unless you are an employee on the regular payroll of the company, but this would typically be for the owner/major shareholder of a corporation, LLC or other higher structure organization and not a sole proprietor as in that instance the owner and business are considered the same entity.

 

[kwired]

Business expenses are reductions to income. If you purchase materials you reduce that amount from your net income, when you sell them you increase your net income by the amount you sold them for. If you purchase items and never sell them (ie. donate them) you have expense that is never reimbursed and therefore is naturally deducted without any extra procedures.

Same goes for labor from employees. If you are paying them that pay is an expense that reduces your income, as well as associated payroll taxes, insurance, etc. Now your own labor may be trickier, unless you are an employee on the regular payroll of the company, but this would typically be for the owner/major shareholder of a corporation, LLC or other higher structure organization and not a sole proprietor as in that instance the owner and business are considered the same entity.

Maybe I need to clarify a little further, what you can't do is take a double deduction. You can not purchase materials or pay for labor via the usual method, take a loss by not invoicing it an getting reimbursement or mark ups, and then submit the whole thing again as a contribution to charity, that would be in effect taking the deduction twice. Similar goes for labor. If you pay your employees or yourself the business has an expense, but can not make some claim to take that expense again in a different expense category (charity contribution).

As far as paying yourself whether or not you are a sole proprietor or a higher level organization, the business takes an expense when it pays you, but you personally gained income and will pay tax on that income - so one way or another the expense is made it is just a matter of whether the business or the individual gets to take it, but when it comes to volunteer labor (income tax wise) that is not an income or an expense and you can't claim it as a charity contribution.