Laundry lighting on laundry circuit
- Thread starter deckscrew
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
I have a hard time calling it a dedicated circuit when it has washer, receptacle and light on it already.
Tapatalk!
Tapatalk!
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
"No other outlets".
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
It means receptacle outlets in the laundry area into which the washer may or may not be plugged and which may have been considered by the code as suitable for an iron or other laundry accessories.
If that special circuit was not required by the code at the time the circuit was installed, the lighting outlet would be permitted and it would probably be OK to extend it to light and fan.
If it was never compliant, it might be necessary to pull a new circuit to pick up the existing light and the new lights and fan.
Tapatalk!
If that special circuit was not required by the code at the time the circuit was installed, the lighting outlet would be permitted and it would probably be OK to extend it to light and fan.
If it was never compliant, it might be necessary to pull a new circuit to pick up the existing light and the new lights and fan.
Tapatalk!
mjf
Senior Member
I would take that as meaning an infinite number of receptacles in the laundry area. any lighting supplied by the circuit would have to be plugged into one of the receptacles.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Yes, just what is a "Laundry receptacle outlet?"
Since they say 'receptacle," I'd say that other types of outlets - like lighting outlets - are not allowed. An 'exception' would be a switch-controlled lighting receptacle outlet.
So, what's a 'laundry receptacle?' Please note that it does NOT say laundry 'area.' So, I'd say it's any receptacle positioned so that it can, in any way, be used for laundry-related activities. IMO, 'permitted' receptacles would be:
- Receptacles providing for ignition of the dryer;
- I'd stretch that to allow the receptacle serving the water heater igniter and vent fan, assuming the water heater is placed in the same area as the laundry;
-Receptacles providing power to the washer;
- "Convenience receptacles" placed in the laundry area;
-Receptacles providing power to irons, steam presses, and drying closets; and,
-Receptacles providing power to work counters in the area.
What receptacles would not be allowed to be on the laundry circuit? Well, I see these as being prohibited:
- Receptacle providing the furnace with power;
- Receptacles placed to meet 'convenience receptacle' requirements;
- Receptacles powering CATV and alarm systems;
- Any outdoor receptacles that you might be tempted to feed from a receptacle in the laundry area; and,
- Receptacles powering holiday lights, doorbell transformers, battery chargers, etc.
Please note I say "laundry area," and not "laundry room." This will require some discretion on the part of everyone. A full basement with a washer in one corner is not all "laundry room!" A closet with nothing in it but the machines, and no room for a counter or table, with the closet opening into a hallway might need only one receptacle to supply the washer. I do not see any requirement to try to guess where the 'iron' might be used elsewhere in the dwelling.
Let me use my own household remodel as an example:
Imagine a long, skinny room (7' x 14'). At one of the 'skinny' ends is the washer, dryer, and water heater. On the long walls, at the other extreme of the room, are doors providing passage from the house, through the room, and to the outside.
For the two long walls and the wall next to the laundry equipment, as I see it, every receptacle is allowed to be on the laundry circuit.
For the other short wall, we are required to place a receptacle from a 'convenience circuit.' IMO, since this area is open to the laundry room, it does not qualify as a hallway - yet, you're sure not going to place a table there! So, I see the code as prohibiting us from placing this receptacle on the laundry circuit.
Since they say 'receptacle," I'd say that other types of outlets - like lighting outlets - are not allowed. An 'exception' would be a switch-controlled lighting receptacle outlet.
So, what's a 'laundry receptacle?' Please note that it does NOT say laundry 'area.' So, I'd say it's any receptacle positioned so that it can, in any way, be used for laundry-related activities. IMO, 'permitted' receptacles would be:
- Receptacles providing for ignition of the dryer;
- I'd stretch that to allow the receptacle serving the water heater igniter and vent fan, assuming the water heater is placed in the same area as the laundry;
-Receptacles providing power to the washer;
- "Convenience receptacles" placed in the laundry area;
-Receptacles providing power to irons, steam presses, and drying closets; and,
-Receptacles providing power to work counters in the area.
What receptacles would not be allowed to be on the laundry circuit? Well, I see these as being prohibited:
- Receptacle providing the furnace with power;
- Receptacles placed to meet 'convenience receptacle' requirements;
- Receptacles powering CATV and alarm systems;
- Any outdoor receptacles that you might be tempted to feed from a receptacle in the laundry area; and,
- Receptacles powering holiday lights, doorbell transformers, battery chargers, etc.
Please note I say "laundry area," and not "laundry room." This will require some discretion on the part of everyone. A full basement with a washer in one corner is not all "laundry room!" A closet with nothing in it but the machines, and no room for a counter or table, with the closet opening into a hallway might need only one receptacle to supply the washer. I do not see any requirement to try to guess where the 'iron' might be used elsewhere in the dwelling.
Let me use my own household remodel as an example:
Imagine a long, skinny room (7' x 14'). At one of the 'skinny' ends is the washer, dryer, and water heater. On the long walls, at the other extreme of the room, are doors providing passage from the house, through the room, and to the outside.
For the two long walls and the wall next to the laundry equipment, as I see it, every receptacle is allowed to be on the laundry circuit.
For the other short wall, we are required to place a receptacle from a 'convenience circuit.' IMO, since this area is open to the laundry room, it does not qualify as a hallway - yet, you're sure not going to place a table there! So, I see the code as prohibiting us from placing this receptacle on the laundry circuit.
n1ist
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- Principal Electrical Engineer
In my kitchen, there's a 1.5 foot counter between the sink and the washing machine. I guess I need two receptacles there - one for the SABC, and one for the laundry area. Time to add the second one...
/mike
/mike
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Sorry, but since it is in the kitchen you are not allowed to have receptacles that are not on an SABC except for a few listed reasons, of which a laundry circuit is not one.
So as I see it the only recourse is to add an allowed third SABC which will also be the laundry circuit. It will have to meet the requirements for both circuit types.
But, on the bright side, it may qualify as the only receptacle circuit needed in that 1.5' wall space.
Tapatalk!
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
I would differ ... the washer is in the laundry, and the stove is in the kitchen. There's no requirement that the two be in different rooms, or have a wall between them.
Unless ... the washer is one of those little things on wheels, which is temporarily hooked up to the kitchen sink faucet for use. Then, IMO, the washer is simply another appliance, and you don't have a laundry area at all. Now you get to invoke the "grandfather clause," in that a laundry circuit was not required before the 1996 code edition.
Two general observations:
A) Messes like this are why 'design' is outside the scope of the NEC- and the code panels need to back off!; and,
B) Architects seem to delight in "Clintonizing" codes, and making it real hard to apply general rules. What's a bedroom? A bathroom? A kitchen? Is the closet part of the bedroom, or the pantry part of the kitchen? And so on ...
Unless ... the washer is one of those little things on wheels, which is temporarily hooked up to the kitchen sink faucet for use. Then, IMO, the washer is simply another appliance, and you don't have a laundry area at all. Now you get to invoke the "grandfather clause," in that a laundry circuit was not required before the 1996 code edition.
Two general observations:
A) Messes like this are why 'design' is outside the scope of the NEC- and the code panels need to back off!; and,
B) Architects seem to delight in "Clintonizing" codes, and making it real hard to apply general rules. What's a bedroom? A bathroom? A kitchen? Is the closet part of the bedroom, or the pantry part of the kitchen? And so on ...
iceworm
Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
- Location
- North of the 65 parallel
- Occupation
- EE (Field - as little design as possible)
Couldn't one draw a line on the ceiling and a cooresponding line on the floor and label the area "Laundry". Thereby defining which receptacles are "Laundry" and which are "SABC". (deleted comment about spontaneous ignition of the washer - I couldn't get the phrasing right)
ice
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
So, based on that simple analysis, if there is an 18" counter between the stove and the washer is it a kitchen counter or a laundry counter?
Does it require two receptacles because it is both?
Does it require one receptacle on each half?
Or does the owner get to identify the counter as one or the other based on their use of it?
Tapatalk!
n1ist
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- Principal Electrical Engineer
I thought that would get some interesting discussion.
The washer is a regular one, not a portable. The more "proper" solution would be to put a duplex behind the washer (or dryer) and call that the laundry receptacle, and leave the counter one as a SABC and claim the it is part of the kitchen. In my case, the one GFCI is on a dedicated 20A circuit, so it can play either role. It likely is grandfathered, but I don't know when it was installed (the house is over 100 years old, but the GFCI certainly isn't). After all the mess I replaced when I bought the house, including flying splices insulated with duct tape, cut romex ends that were live, and the SEU that had lost all of the outer jacket, it's a minor issue.
/mike
The washer is a regular one, not a portable. The more "proper" solution would be to put a duplex behind the washer (or dryer) and call that the laundry receptacle, and leave the counter one as a SABC and claim the it is part of the kitchen. In my case, the one GFCI is on a dedicated 20A circuit, so it can play either role. It likely is grandfathered, but I don't know when it was installed (the house is over 100 years old, but the GFCI certainly isn't). After all the mess I replaced when I bought the house, including flying splices insulated with duct tape, cut romex ends that were live, and the SEU that had lost all of the outer jacket, it's a minor issue.
/mike
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Are you certain about that year? I started this trade using the 1987 code, and am pretty certain a laundry circuit was required then, there may have been some changes to what is permitted on that circuit but I remember needing to add 1500VA to load calculations for the laundry back in school, and that there had to be a 20 amp circuit for the laundry.
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