Commercial Building Main Disconnect Requirements

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oldude

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Hello, Old electrician here, getting rusty on code. Question on main disconnect requirements on a metal commercial building. Through the years, general rule of thumb on exterior main service disconnect was it was required if the panel was not adjacent to the meter pan or on commercial buildings due to the readily accessible rule. Service in question is underground fed ringless meterpan. Should a exterior main disconnect be used even if the panel is immediately adjacent to the meterpan. 240v single phase 200a. Please advise with NEC and NFPA requirements. Thanks for expert advise. OlDude
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Hello, Old electrician here, getting rusty on code. Question on main disconnect requirements on a metal commercial building. Through the years, general rule of thumb on exterior main service disconnect was it was required if the panel was not adjacent to the meter pan or on commercial buildings due to the readily accessible rule. Service in question is underground fed ringless meterpan. Should a exterior main disconnect be used even if the panel is immediately adjacent to the meterpan. 240v single phase 200a. Please advise with NEC and NFPA requirements. Thanks for expert advise. OlDude

I always thought it was required because you can't have unfused conductors in a building, back-to-back installations normally being excepted.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Hello, Old electrician here, getting rusty on code. Question on main disconnect requirements on a metal commercial building. Through the years, general rule of thumb on exterior main service disconnect was it was required if the panel was not adjacent to the meter pan or on commercial buildings due to the readily accessible rule. Service in question is underground fed ringless meterpan. Should a exterior main disconnect be used even if the panel is immediately adjacent to the meterpan. 240v single phase 200a. Please advise with NEC and NFPA requirements. Thanks for expert advise. OlDude

Not 100% sure of your exact question. I think you are saying "adjacent" to represent interior of the building. That is the important piece of information. Refer to 2008 code section 230.70 (A) particularly (1) for the requirements. There is some ambiguity here. "inside nearest the point of entrance" has some interpretation. I have seen AHJ's allow up to 10 feet, other's requiring back to back. From the ground on local AHJ requires that there are no elbows. Hope this helps.
 

oldude

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I always thought it was required because you can't have unfused conductors in a building, back-to-back installations normally being excepted.

Thank you for the reply. My last code book was from 1987 and I couldn't find a requirement for a main disconnect on the exterior of a commercial building. Your point is well taken on a run through the building to a panel where the exterior main disconnect would be fused or contain a circuit breaker. I have done very little new construction through the years, as I worked as a maintenance troubleshooter. I'm a bit weak on code in some instances. I could have sworn in my early years that a exterior main disconnect was required on commercial building installations regardless if the panel was immediately adjacent to the meter pan(back to back). Maybe it was city code? So, I suppose I should quit giving advise to folks who ask me as I was wrong on this one, too old, too many burnt brain cells from being a heavy drinker, LOL. So from a practical standpoint, how about helping me with some good reasons to have an exterior main disconnect whether required or not. I think that in the event of a fire or safety emergency, one pull on the disconnect handle would shut the power to the building without having to open up the ringless meterpan to pull the meter. Not having to go into the building to kill the main breaker in an emergency. Can you think of any other good reasons to have one? Thanks, oldude.
 

oldude

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Not 100% sure of your exact question. I think you are saying "adjacent" to represent interior of the building. That is the important piece of information. Refer to 2008 code section 230.70 (A) particularly (1) for the requirements. There is some ambiguity here. "inside nearest the point of entrance" has some interpretation. I have seen AHJ's allow up to 10 feet, other's requiring back to back. From the ground on local AHJ requires that there are no elbows. Hope this helps.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, seems as though its always been a gray area as there is no specified distance regarding "immediately adjacent". If you read my post above, I'd still like to have more good reasons to justify an exterior main disconnect on a commercial building, required or not, so I won't appear to be a total idiot. Have you ever heard of perhaps a city requirement(not NEC or NFPA) for a exterior main disconnect? I didn't just dream this up, it had to have been required somewhere, then maybe I'm getting old and burnt.
Thanks, oldude.
 

Ragin Cajun

Senior Member
Location
Upstate S.C.
I have had fire marshals require the disconnect to be located on the outside of the building. Lost a client on one of these because I agreed with the fire marshal and showed a main on the outside. Cheap !@#$%^&*(!

Personally, I require on all my drawings that the main be outside the building. It can get messy for industrials. Did one apartment building with the first floor above the flood plain/storm surge (on the coast). All electrical was on the first floor including unit meters so they would not get flooded. I provided a remote trip for the main at grade level for the firemen. They liked that.



RC
 

oldude

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I have had fire marshals require the disconnect to be located on the outside of the building. Lost a client on one of these because I agreed with the fire marshal and showed a main on the outside. Cheap !@#$%^&*(!

Personally, I require on all my drawings that the main be outside the building. It can get messy for industrials. Did one apartment building with the first floor above the flood plain/storm surge (on the coast). All electrical was on the first floor including unit meters so they would not get flooded. I provided a remote trip for the main at grade level for the firemen. They liked that.



RC

Thanks for the reply. I think you hit the nail on the head with your example. Even though it's not an NEC requirement, NFPA interpretation by the local Fire Marshal's office may require it. I believe if this place gets inspected by a Fire Marshal, they are likely to require an exterior electrical disconnecting means versus pulling the meter as they might do on a residential service. In this instance, I did a material list for a good friend, with the work to be done by others. When he got some electricians to do the work, they told him he didn't need a disconnect on the exterior of the building. Now I feel bad because he likely feels like I cost him extra material and labor for a disconnect that wasn't required even though he told them to install it anyway. So its a pay now or pay later situation. I don't think he's expecting a Fire Marshal inspection but once he's up and running in business, they may pay him a surprise visit. Thank you very much for another good reason. oldude
 

augie47

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Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
NEC Code-wise, 230.70(A)(1) requires the service disconnect(s) to be at a redaily accessible locationn either INSIDE or OUTSIDE of a building nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.
That distance can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and often from job to job depending on conditions.
Unless required by some local or other Code there is no "outside requirement".

I used to agree with folks about the virtues of the disconnect being outside until I talked with an inspector from a State where 4 and 5 foot snowdrifts were common :D
 

oldude

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NEC Code-wise, 230.70(A)(1) requires the service disconnect(s) to be at a redaily accessible locationn either INSIDE or OUTSIDE of a building nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.
That distance can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and often from job to job depending on conditions.
Unless required by some local or other Code there is no "outside requirement".

I used to agree with folks about the virtues of the disconnect being outside until I talked with an inspector from a State where 4 and 5 foot snowdrifts were common :D

Thanks for your reply. Yes Sir, thats NEC straight from the book. And from poking around on the net I've found that some citys require it on a commercial building as the Firemen won't pull a meter under load. But then, whats the difference in pulling a residential 200a meter and a 200a commercial meter. I really don't see the difference in a meterpan or a additional exterior disconnect being buried in snow, with them both being mounted at roughly the same height. Luckily we ain't got that problem this far south, LOL. oldude
 

oldude

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I believe that in Chicago outside disconnects are not allowed, at least for residences.

Tapatalk!

Thanks for the reply. Now thats different, I wonder why they would not be allowed? Seems to me they call them safety switches in the catalogs for a reason. Maybe, so some crooks couldn't come and kill your house real easy and rob you while you had no power? I think if you decided you wanted a main on the exterior of your house, an inspector would have to be a real dick to turn a safety switch down because it wasn't required. This is getting to be an interesting conversation. Thanks.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Thanks for your reply. Yes Sir, thats NEC straight from the book. And from poking around on the net I've found that some citys require it on a commercial building as the Firemen won't pull a meter under load. But then, whats the difference in pulling a residential 200a meter and a 200a commercial meter. I really don't see the difference in a meterpan or a additional exterior disconnect being buried in snow, with them both being mounted at roughly the same height. Luckily we ain't got that problem this far south, LOL. oldude

I posted back a few years ago that a city fire marshal was trying to make contractors install a disconnect on the outside of all structures for the same reason some stated above, when he was shot down by the state of Indiana's building commission our AHJ, he then tried to get it into law via state legislators, most of the arguments for it revolved around the being safer for the fireman, but we showed that if a fireman was to open a disconnect at the same time the feeders was to fault that fireman would be or could be exposed to a large explosive arc flash, we also showed the only true way to remove power from an involved building was to train the firemen to use hot sticks as was already being done in most jurisdictions, and even if you put such a code into law today, because of grandfather laws it will be many years before buildings would all have outside disconnects so firemen would still have to be trained to pull the transformer fuse with a hot stick for many years to come, pulling the meter is suicide unless the firemen had a full gorilla suit on, if you have departments doing this they need to hook up with the utility so they can learn how to safely use a hot stick to pull the transformer fuse.

The law also has to look at the financial burden a law puts on the people before it can be put into effect, in this case the benefits did not out weighed the cost to the people of our state and it was voted down.

Here are some other dangers a law like this will introduce to a building and the owners of these buildings.

Kids love to play games, how many houses that are sitting empty waiting to be sold or the owners go to somewhere south every year sometimes up to 6 months in the winter, think of the cost of the damage vandals can do if they can shut off the power in the winter and it goes un-noticed till the owners get back, they can cause thousands of dollars in damage in frozen water lines and or broken pipes flooding finished basements.

It makes it much easier for copper thieves when they can remove the power not that it makes it much of a difference to them but it does slow them down.

I have seen a local covenant store/gas station had to close for the night thinking the power failed but it was only kids playing around and turned off the disconnect, most of these night time store workers would not know the difference, they lost allot of money because of this.

Banks would not want a disconnect readily available for the same reasons, the list goes on.

I have been called out even to homes where kids turned off the power and the home owner didn't know what happened and called us, so yes it can even cost home owners, I know I would not want an outside disconnect at my house.

so the reality of this is it will not add much safety for the firemen who still will have to learn how to properly pull the fuse with a hot stick for years to come (which has been proved to be the safest way to remove power from a burning building), and at the same time can add thousands of dollars not only the extra cost of the equipment but for the damage I stated above to the residents of that state that adopts such a law, all of the above was presented to the state which is why it was voted down here in Indiana.

Also almost all our fire trucks will have a hot stick on it as part of their normal fire tools, the utility is the first call but if their ETA is to long and the firemen can't wait then they get out the hot stick.

We have buildings where the meters are all located inside and are fed underground, again hot stick is the only way.

Here's a link to my old post: Outside disconnect's might be mandatory in the state of
 
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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I am surprised that the utilities are ok with fire fighters using hot sticks...around here the utilities would be very upset of anyone other than their employees pulled a cutout. I wonder if the hot sticks and high voltage gloves used by the fire departments are tested every 6 months as required?
 

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
I believe that in Chicago outside disconnects are not allowed, at least for residences.

Tapatalk!

No outside disconnects at all, in Chicago.
Thanks
Mike

Further more the main disconnect shall be located within 5 feet of the entrance of the building.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
I am surprised that the utilities are ok with fire fighters using hot sticks...around here the utilities would be very upset of anyone other than their employees pulled a cutout. I wonder if the hot sticks and high voltage gloves used by the fire departments are tested every 6 months as required?

Actually the utility is the one that gives the training to the fire departments, and I have heard that they even donate hot sticks to the volunteer departments, I'm not sure of all the details but I have seen them use them at a few fires, I'm not sure if they also have the 5 sided sockets for the pad mounted transformers but somewhere I heard they do.

I do know they hold a yearly training for them at one of NISPCO's yards in Valparaiso, but I'm not sure how it's done in the rest of the state father south as NISPCo covers the northern part of the state from I'll to Ohio.

In the past it was well known that they used to have local Police shoot out the cutout, guess this was a better option LOL and yes we had some real Cowboys here, a few years back we had to repair some 12' HPS post lights used for the street lights, there was a hostage situation at a house and the police needed the street lights turned off so instead of calling someone who knew where the disconnects were they decided to shoot them out, lets just say their aim was a little bad, and some fixtures had 7 to 10 holes in them, I ask one who was there if they even thought about where all those bullets were going and he got a little upset with me, I found out later a few people had also a few holes in their houses that the city had to pay for, it was a miracle no one was killed or even hurt, some how they kept it all out of the newspaper, of course the main story was in there but this little tibbit wasn't, it's amazing how people don't think before acting, or what they get away with.
Scary ain't it
 

oldude

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Location
DOWN SOUTH
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THANKS

I posted back a few years ago that a city fire marshal was trying to make contractors install a disconnect on the outside of all structures for the same reason some stated above, when he was shot down by the state of Indiana's building commission our AHJ, he then tried to get it into law via state legislators, most of the arguments for it revolved around the being safer for the fireman, but we showed that if a fireman was to open a disconnect at the same time the feeders was to fault that fireman would be or could be exposed to a large explosive arc flash, we also showed the only true way to remove power from an involved building was to train the firemen to use hot sticks as was already being done in most jurisdictions, and even if you put such a code into law today, because of grandfather laws it will be many years before buildings would all have outside disconnects so firemen would still have to be trained to pull the transformer fuse with a hot stick for many years to come, pulling the meter is suicide unless the firemen had a full gorilla suit on, if you have departments doing this they need to hook up with the utility so they can learn how to safely use a hot stick to pull the transformer fuse.

The law also has to look at the financial burden a law puts on the people before it can be put into effect, in this case the benefits did not out weighed the cost to the people of our state and it was voted down.

Here are some other dangers a law like this will introduce to a building and the owners of these buildings.

Kids love to play games, how many houses that are sitting empty waiting to be sold or the owners go to somewhere south every year sometimes up to 6 months in the winter, think of the cost of the damage vandals can do if they can shut off the power in the winter and it goes un-noticed till the owners get back, they can cause thousands of dollars in damage in frozen water lines and or broken pipes flooding finished basements.

It makes it much easier for copper thieves when they can remove the power not that it makes it much of a difference to them but it does slow them down.

I have seen a local covenant store/gas station had to close for the night thinking the power failed but it was only kids playing around and turned off the disconnect, most of these night time store workers would not know the difference, they lost allot of money because of this.

Banks would not want a disconnect readily available for the same reasons, the list goes on.

I have been called out even to homes where kids turned off the power and the home owner didn't know what happened and called us, so yes it can even cost home owners, I know I would not want an outside disconnect at my house.

so the reality of this is it will not add much safety for the firemen who still will have to learn how to properly pull the fuse with a hot stick for years to come (which has been proved to be the safest way to remove power from a burning building), and at the same time can add thousands of dollars not only the extra cost of the equipment but for the damage I stated above to the residents of that state that adopts such a law, all of the above was presented to the state which is why it was voted down here in Indiana.

Also almost all our fire trucks will have a hot stick on it as part of their normal fire tools, the utility is the first call but if their ETA is to long and the firemen can't wait then they get out the hot stick.

We have buildings where the meters are all located inside and are fed underground, again hot stick is the only way.

Here's a link to my old post: Outside disconnect's might be mandatory in the state of

Thanks for your reply. I read your old post with interest. I do know a ex-fireman that was also an electrician, he was pretty comfortable pulling a meter if needed, but also said that he could pull the handle on a disconnect alot faster and feel safer about it. When I worked in industry, we had to use a flash suit and HV gloves to pull a meter or a can from a MCC, etc. Thanks, oldude
 

oldude

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I am surprised that the utilities are ok with fire fighters using hot sticks...around here the utilities would be very upset of anyone other than their employees pulled a cutout. I wonder if the hot sticks and high voltage gloves used by the fire departments are tested every 6 months as required?

Thanks for your reply. Same around here. We have several local power companies, they don't like you touching their equipment. Thanks, oldude
 
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oldude

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No outside disconnects at all, in Chicago.
Thanks
Mike

Further more the main disconnect shall be located within 5 feet of the entrance of the building.

I seem to remember seeing a disconnect in a little storefront hung very intrusive(ugly eyesore) right inside the door. It was somewhere when we were on vacation, can't remember now. I asked a commercial guy about this practice and he said in some places it was required just inside the door. Thanks, oldude
 

oldude

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Actually the utility is the one that gives the training to the fire departments, and I have heard that they even donate hot sticks to the volunteer departments, I'm not sure of all the details but I have seen them use them at a few fires, I'm not sure if they also have the 5 sided sockets for the pad mounted transformers but somewhere I heard they do.

I do know they hold a yearly training for them at one of NISPCO's yards in Valparaiso, but I'm not sure how it's done in the rest of the state father south as NISPCo covers the northern part of the state from I'll to Ohio.

In the past it was well known that they used to have local Police shoot out the cutout, guess this was a better option LOL and yes we had some real Cowboys here, a few years back we had to repair some 12' HPS post lights used for the street lights, there was a hostage situation at a house and the police needed the street lights turned off so instead of calling someone who knew where the disconnects were they decided to shoot them out, lets just say their aim was a little bad, and some fixtures had 7 to 10 holes in them, I ask one who was there if they even thought about where all those bullets were going and he got a little upset with me, I found out later a few people had also a few holes in their houses that the city had to pay for, it was a miracle no one was killed or even hurt, some how they kept it all out of the newspaper, of course the main story was in there but this little tibbit wasn't, it's amazing how people don't think before acting, or what they get away with.
Scary ain't it

Thanks for your reply. Thats scary. I haven't got a clue what the fire dept's are trained in around here. I do know they sometimes pull a meter. I have a friend thats an ex-fireman, I'll have to ask him when I see him.

I do appreciate the feedback from the members here. It appears that all the years of my career I spent as a troubleshooter(motor controls, process controls, instrumentation, etc.) really hurt me as far as code knowledge on the residential and commercial end of things. Question floating in my mind now is, I sure hope the inspector will consider the disconnect over and above code as an additional safety switch and not turn it down. That would piss me off, as the owner wants it as per my recommendation to put it in. Thanks, oldude
 

meternerd

Senior Member
Location
Athol, ID
Occupation
retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
Shunt trips?

Shunt trips?

What about shunt trips? Does that eliminate the need for an outside disconnect? Red triangle showing the thieves where to turn it off? Is a shunt trip a code requirement or a local fire code requirement? We provide 'em on all of our pump stations when the service is a CT metered service with the service disconnect inside of a locked door. We (the local water utility) never seemed to get a straight answer about needing one or not.
 
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