concealed load center?

[Copperclad]

Hi guys, Just a quick couple of questions , if you would not mind sharing your input.
We are currently wiring a Donut Shop ( you would not believe the equipment it takes to make one of these franchises work!)
Anyway, we would like to install a 100 amp sub-panel in the knee space of the front counter millwork to feed all the various appliances. There is a chase built in to the millwork to accomodate electrical plumbing, and POS respectively. The whole front (customer side ) of the millwork has very easily removed kick panels to inable access to all the different recpts. The engineer is telling me a sub-panel in this area would be illegal. #1 because the panel would be behind a removable kick panel, and #2 because the panel would be only about 8" off the finished floor.
We are currently using 2008 NEC, and I cannot find anything to prohibit this install. Any help would be apprecitated!
ps: the panel would be facing out towards the customer side, so once the kick panel is removed the panel is right there, very accessable in my opinion.
Must also note to add: These panels are removed without using any tools what so ever, just lift up and out, and thats it!
Other contractors have used this design, and to my knowledge never had any problems passing inspection.
Thanks everyone!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

For one art 240.24 states readily accessible and 110.26 clearances. Now I have said that I believe this type of install is not uncommon but I am not sure as to how it is compliant

 

[GoldDigger]

If the counter is a free standing unit manufactured with the panel and wiring included, would the NEC apply?

Tapatalk!

 

[charlie b]

There is no minimum distance between the floor and the bottom of a panel. There is only a maximum height of a breaker's handle, and that will not be a concern for this installation. There is no rule prohibiting having a panel behind a removable cover. However, you might have an issue with working space. The required depth of the working space is measured from the front face of the "enclosure or opening." See the last sentence of 110.26(A)(1), just before the table is shown or before subparagraph (a) starts (depending on how your copy is laid out).

I presume the sub-panel would have a cover of its own, behind the kick panel of the millwork. In order to get to the live parts, one would have to remove the kick panel, and then remove the sub-panel's cover. Then, to make any connections, or to add or remove a breaker, one would have to reach past the opening of the millwork, before getting to the opening of the panel. It could be argued that this does not provide the required side-to-side clearance of 30 inches. If, for example, the front face of the sub-panel were 2 or more inches deeper than the front face of the millwork, I would definitely call this a violation. But if the sub-panel were installed as close as possible to the front of the millwork, so close that you can just barely get the kick panel secured in place, then I think you can call this compliant.

That said, I will now add that I would not put my seal and signature on a design drawing that shows the installation that you are proposing. It would not provide as much for the safety of a future maintenance electrician as I would want to provide. I would not want to make the electrician have to sit or kneel in front of a panel, in order to perform any live work. I want the person on his or her feet, while doing any live work. It is perhaps a bit overly cautious on my part. But it occurs to me that if a person inadvertently contacts a live bus bar, the current flowing through the person?s hand may cause the hand to grip tightly onto bus bar, preventing the person from being able to let go. In such a case, the only thing that might be able to save the person?s life is when they lose all control of their muscles, with the result that the weight of their falling body pulls their hand away from the panel. A person sitting or kneeling when the contact takes place will not have the ability to fall.

I once heard a person say that he believes he is alive today because he fell away from the item that was shocking him. He said that he had tried to tell himself, ?let go, you idiot, or you are going to die.? It was the weight of his falling body that forced his hand to let go. You might have heard of this person. His name is Mike Holt.

 

[charlie b]

For one art 240.24 states readily accessible . . . .

Under the 2008 definition, putting a kick panel in front of a sub-panel does not cause the breakers to no longer be "readily accessible." The 2014 definition changes that, presuming one would need a tool to remove the kick panel. However, the OP has stated that no tools are needed in this case.

 

[charlie b]

If the counter is a free standing unit manufactured with the panel and wiring included, would the NEC apply?

I think not. However, the OP seems to be saying that they want to install a panel within the empty space inside the millwork.

 

[Copperclad]

I think not. However, the OP seems to be saying that they want to install a panel within the empty space inside the millwork.

Good point Charlie and duly noted!
I do believe the kick panels are roughly 30" and the load center would be as far out to the front as possible. So in theory, although not the ideal install, still could be considered compliant?
Thanks for all your help